crispy's refrain

[Raceworder2.0]

Some of the most popular years at Indy were the 50's...guess what, the cars all looked the same...most were powered by the 4 cylinder offy...

...and there was a diversity of characters behind the wheel(s) just like today, too.

The humongous difference, then, are the chiefs and the mechanics who made all those cars that looked the same and those engines that were badged the same, perform so much more individually different.

One thing I'm noticing totally different in fan talk on this forum and the atmosphere of Indy car racing I grew up in is the props for the guys who make the cars go fast; the Porters, the Beckleys, the Watsons, the Phillips', the Learys, the Capels', etc, etc, etc. Compare that non-issue due to the political rule making in Indy car racing today to the status of the wrenches in Sprint Cup and how their stories add-in to NASCAR's large appeal.

The wrenches in Indy car racing used to be as almost as popular as the drivers to Indy car fans; that invaluable asset to the sport practically doesn't exist today. The way to begin renewing that great input is to first put the engines back into the teams' hands.

[Todd Gack]

I believe Mr. Foyt won 4 Indy 500s, 1 in a car he owned. He also won Indy as an owner with Brack, won countless other races, championships and titles.

Please post your record so we can compare.

AJ as a driver was arguably the greatest who ever drove a race car.

AJ as a owner? Uhh, not so much.

His race team since 2000 has been a joke. Just look at the drivers he's employed during that span. That tells the story. Airton Dare. Felipe Giaffone. Darren Manning. Vitor Meira. Mike Conway.

Just a whole lotta journeymen drivers, who are basically unsellable to the American public.

You'd think at some point, he and Larry would figure it out and go out and find their Joe Newgarden or their Sam Hornish Jr. Somebody who would make that iconic #14 relevant again and a car that the American race fan could care about again. When you haven't won a race since 2001, you'd think you'd try something different.

For my money, that Foyt #14 has been the least interesting and borderline invisible car in the field for the past 5 years in the IC series. You almost forget they are even in the race most weekends. Kinda like what has happened with the #43 in Cup.

All Foyt did during the early years of the IRL was yap about "American drivers". And for the most part all he's done since is ignore them. At least for the #14 car.

That makes AJ a hypocrite. And as a fan of AJ, that pains me to say.

[Indyknut]

...and there was a diversity of characters behind the wheel(s) just like today, too.

The humongous difference, then, are the chiefs and the mechanics who made all those cars that looked the same and those engines that were badged the same, perform so much more individually different.

One thing I'm noticing totally different in fan talk on this forum and the atmosphere of Indy car racing I grew up in is the props for the guys who make the cars go fast; the Porters, the Beckleys, the Watsons, the Phillips', the Learys, the Capels', etc, etc, etc. Compare that non-issue due to the political rule making in Indy car racing today to the status of the wrenches in Sprint Cup and how their stories add-in to NASCAR's large appeal.

The wrenches in Indy car racing used to be as almost as popular as the drivers to Indy car fans; that invaluable asset to the sport practically doesn't exist today. The way to begin renewing that great input is to first put the engines back into the teams' hands.

Pining for days way-way gone by.

The reason the engines are in the hands of the badging companies is because the series needs the extra's ($$) the badgers provide to stay afloat.
The badging engine companies are also watching their pennies. They're expending X amount of $ to participate in the series vs. Y amount of return. Allow outside builders into the series that don't have the same financial responsibilities they have and those badgers will have to reassess their involvement in the league.
If that $$ factor wasn't in the equation, the series would be in a position to be more flexible on what engines are used and who can build them.

Until there's a rise in popularity in the series I don't see this changing anytime soon. Instead, perhaps the series needs to be more creative with the Badging companies in order to get more outside involvement in the series building engines.

[Ajax]

I agree with Indyk 100%.

So what about a spending cap that does not rely on manufacture involvement? How about an open rule book to allow teams to improvise within that cap? Is it possible?

Frankly I do not see IndyCar surviving over the next decade without a HUGE transformation and cost is the biggest issue on the blocks. COST is the reason we run more street races - have to bring in foreign drivers with a check and have these stupid threads about whether we are going to get 33 cars come May.

The series return is horrible - jacked up by twisted B2B deals and half ass no-name sponsors on the low end. No one here knows whether IZOD will continue but I think we all know when that deal ends, it will be impossible to garnish a new series sponsor with the ratings trend we have established over the last 2-3 seasons.

We're spending WAY too much for nothing. Perhaps it's time we spent less - face the music that on a national level, IndyCar is NOT a major racing series - maybe it's USAC with a TV contract and an expense that is 1000 times greater. I think RB and the family are making cuts - a ton, and going after street races to offset spending and get the H/G family back into the black. But that's being done for family reasons - not necessarily for the benefit of AOW on the long term. Hell a ton more has to be done for this sort of racing to continue on throughout the next 25 years.


<end rant>

[Todd Gack]

I think RB and the family are making cuts - a ton.

Of course they are.

Its why so many less yellow shirts are working now. Or why the gates are opening an hour later. Or why it costs $10 for a practice day now, instead of $5. Or why there have been virtually no improvements to the IMS grounds in the past few years. Or why they are talking about taking stands out in some parts of the track. Or why the place is now visibly much dirtier then it was in the past, during the month.

Its all about saving money now. And hoping one day, it turns back around.

[Raceworder2.0]

Pining for days way-way gone by.

Yeah.

Those "Pining" days consisted of a time when Indy car racing ruled the racing world of popularity in these United States. It was also a time when political CARTers began believing they knew how to run, package, and manage the sport better than anyone else, that a series was just as important - if not more so - than only one race, eg.

30+ years of failed history now and the CARTers still think all they need is "popularity" for their political theories to still succeed. This May is just one more example of that as the foremost issues are political, when it's the politics that retard the sport.

Take the racing out of the hands of political aspirants and put it back into the greasy hands of the folks whose sole passion resides between the fences. I understand those folks are very few and far behind in Indy car racing after being so politically culled from their own herd, but the natural passion they possess for the sport is plenty enough to begin a new epidemic.

[Doyouloveit?]

Of course they are.

Its why so many less yellow shirts are working now. Or why the gates are opening an hour later. Or why it costs $10 for a practice day now, instead of $5. Or why there have been virtually no improvements to the IMS grounds in the past few years. Or why they are talking about taking stands out in some parts of the track. Or why the place is now visibly much dirtier then it was in the past, during the month.

Its all about saving money now. And hoping one day, it turns back around.

Just like every other business in America....cut costs and run leaner. Or IMS operating like a business and not TG's playground.

What capital improvements are needed that would make the race day experience better?

I think the reason they are talking about taking stands down in parts of the track...i.e., North end short chute is to put some types of corporate hospitality viewing decks or suites.

[Todd Gack]

What capital improvements are needed that would make the race day experience better?

They have needed new video boards and scoreboards for years.

Those things they have now (which were erected over 20 years ago) are antiquated.

And there are some stands that are looking their age too.

[Ajax]

Yeah.

Those "Pining" days consisted of a time when Indy car racing ruled the racing world of popularity in these United States. It was also a time when political CARTers began believing they knew how to run, package, and manage the sport better than anyone else, that a series was just as important - if not more so - than only one race, eg.

30+ years of failed history now and the CARTers still think all they need is "popularity" for their political theories to still succeed. This May is just one more example of that as the foremost issues are political, when it's the politics that retard the sport.

Take the racing out of the hands of political aspirants and put it back into the greasy hands of the folks whose sole passion resides between the fences. I understand those folks are very few and far behind in Indy car racing after being so politically culled from their own herd, but the natural passion they possess for the sport is plenty enough to begin a new epidemic.

Are you saying CART achieved nothing? Certainly TV ratings, purse winnings, teams and mega sponsors would completely say otherwise.

[Doyouloveit?]

They have needed new video boards and scoreboards for years.

Those things they have now (which were erected over 20 years ago) are antiquated.

And there are some stands that are looking their age too.

Stands? I think they replaced some stands this year. Video boards? In what way? I think the video boards are fine. Are people not buying tickets because of antiquated video boards? The video board works fine where I sit.

[crispy]

Stands? I think they replaced some stands this year. Video boards? In what way? I think the video boards are fine. Are people not buying tickets because of antiquated video boards? The video board works fine where I sit.

The video boards are crap for 2012. Like comparing the Jumbotron at the RCA Dome to what is in LOS. No comparison.

[Turn13]

The old rotating billboards with the lightbulb-lettering in each of the short chutes are probably archaic.

But so are the ivy-covered walls and the hand turned scoreboard at Wrigley

[Turn13]

The video boards are crap for 2012. Like comparing the Jumbotron at the RCA Dome to what is in LOS. No comparison.

So you like the socialist, taxpayer-funded ones? I hear if you don't pay taxes they come after you with weapons and throw you in jail

[Doyouloveit?]

The video boards are crap for 2012. Like comparing the Jumbotron at the RCA Dome to what is in LOS. No comparison.

Who cares. I'd rather watch a Colts game in the RCA Dome than LOS. LOS is nice and has nice jumbtrons but it doesn't replicate the atmosphere the RCA Dome had. I'll take atmosphere over amenities, any day. See Hinkle Fieldhouse versus some new arena....there is no comparsion.

B%itching about Jumbotrons....what a joke.

[Ajax]

Once you guys all learn that it's about beer and food you'll all get along better.

[Chris Paff]

Are you saying CART achieved nothing? Certainly TV ratings, purse winnings, teams and mega sponsors would completely say otherwise.

CART went bankrupt

[Turn13]

CART went bankrupt

They did?

[Chris Paff]

They did?

Twice

[Ajax]

CART went bankrupt

Rubbish deflection.

Can't admit that before they started making dumb decisions to take on F1, that they managed to elevate the sport to it's highest ever levels - ever - period - hands down.

If you cannot admit that then let me know so I can add you to my ignore list

[Turn13]

Twice

[Chris Paff]

Rubbish deflection.

Can't admit that before they started making dumb decisions to take on F1, that they managed to elevate the sport to it's highest ever levels - ever - period - hands down.

If you cannot admit that then let me know so I can add you to my ignore list

They were making dumb decisions from the mid 1980's on.. CART's direction is one of the biggest reasons why Indycar is where it is today.. The only reason why CART was successful was it's connection to Indianapolis. CART did not make any stars.. Indy did.. They used Indy and did nothing to give back..

The positive thing that CART did was market the sport better then what USAC did.. That along with the rise of ESPN is the reason why CART grew so much in the 80's and 90's.. But overall CART was built on a house of cards which was bound to collaspe at some point.

[Turn13]

What brought them down was division.

Of course, they could have scaled back to participant-funded short track racing - just as USAC did when they lost the 500 - but why?

[Jakester]

But overall CART was built on a house of cards which was bound to collaspe at some point.

As was the original IRL, built on spending the Hulman business fortune to support the series. The result was the guy writing the checks was released from the business.

[Joonyah]

Twice

Actually once. Champ Car went bankrupt once too.

And CART did achieve ratings that right now we would crap our pants over if we got half of what their ratings were in 1995.

[Raceworder2.0]

Are you saying CART achieved nothing? Certainly TV ratings, purse winnings, teams and mega sponsors would completely say otherwise.

Rereading my post, I can most assuredly answer, No, I did not.

The most significant "thing" CART ever achieved still roosts within some threads on this forum: that the series is just as important as the Indianapolis 500 and, lingering even still, the sense that more than just a few posters would have no problem with the series going its own way with less and less input from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and even eventually totally discarding the Speedway again, as was done before and even has been suggested on this forum (although I still don't understand how that is even possible from my understanding that the IMSC fully possesses the series).

[Todd Gack]

The old rotating billboards with the lightbulb-lettering in each of the short chutes are probably archaic.

I like those. Those are traditional and should always be kept.

Its the white video boards located throughout the grounds, that need to be replaced or updated. And have needed to be updated for about 10 years now.

When you are at a track where you can't see all the way around, you better give the paying customer that.

[Todd Gack]

B%itching about Jumbotrons....what a joke.

No joke. Just a legit part of the facility that needs updated...badly.

And a part of the facility that would have been many years ago, under the old regime (and when the Indy 500 wasn't so closely linked with the IC series).

Again, for those of us who have been attending IMS for years, its pretty noticeable some of the differences in tidiness around the grounds. It would be nice one day to get back to those days where the facility's upkeep was a top priority. The last few years, its slipped.

[Indyknut]

They were making dumb decisions from the mid 1980's on.. CART's direction is one of the biggest reasons why Indycar is where it is today..

In your opinion. CART was attempting the build a more successful racing series (year round) than what was the status quo at the time in the late 70's. They succeeded.

The only reason why CART was successful was it's connection to Indianapolis. CART did not make any stars.. Indy did.. They used Indy and did nothing to give back..

CART revolved it's racing series around Indy just like the USAC run pre-CART did. What CART did was bring more national attention to the series throughout the year vs. just the month of May.

Now I'd like to ask what the Hulmans' have done to give back to OW racing?
It would seem they're the ones that have as much, if not more vested interest in the overall health of the top level of OW racing in this country.

The positive thing that CART did was market the sport better then what USAC did.. That along with the rise of ESPN is the reason why CART grew so much in the 80's and 90's.. But overall CART was built on a house of cards which was bound to collaspe at some point.

CART fulfilled their objectives in the Gurney White Paper. Yes, an organization run by the owners isn't an ideal way to grow a sport for the long haul, that's where CART needed a different direction.

[doitagain]

No joke. Just a legit part of the facility that needs updated...badly.

And a part of the facility that would have been many years ago, under the old regime (and when the Indy 500 wasn't so closely linked with the IC series).

Again, for those of us who have been attending IMS for years, its pretty noticeable some of the differences in tidiness around the grounds. It would be nice one day to get back to those days where the facility's upkeep was a top priority. The last few years, its slipped.

How much of that is related to tv ratings of 4 now vs. 13 then, or pole day crowds down to 25,000 now vs. 200,000 then?

Is it possible to draw quality, marketable competitors with only one event per year, with modern-day entertainment alternatives?

[Indyknut]

Rereading my post, I can most assuredly answer, No, I did not.

The most significant "thing" CART ever achieved still roosts within some threads on this forum: that the series is just as important as the Indianapolis 500 and, lingering even still, the sense that more than just a few posters would have no problem with the series going its own way with less and less input from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and even eventually totally discarding the Speedway again, as was done before and even has been suggested on this forum (although I still don't understand how that is even possible from my understanding that the IMSC fully possesses the series).

The 2 other massively popular race series in the world right now, F1 and NASCAR, are in that position because they've built a race series where every race is important. If NASCAR operated like some on these boards would like Indy car to operate, their race season would already be over in February.

F1's wouldn't go past Monaco.

You're full of contradictions.
In one thread you want limitations removed and the cars to be allowed to increase their speeds so new speed records can be achieved at Indy.
Then this thread you think the series started to go downhill when the "greasers" were pushed out of the sport.

The greasers got pushed out of the sport because the technology passed them by. 250 - 270mph speeds at Indy aren't going to happen coming from somebodies backyard garage. It takes money and lots of it to get to the speeds Indy car is running now and do it safely and reliably. That hasn't changed since the "greasers" were left out.