The Turbogate Saga Continues...........

[airborn]

If I were Chevy, I would be pissed too. Even though Chevy has won the first 4 races, Honda has been very competitive and now is more competitive. And these were all street/road courses, where Chevy should have the advantage, ceteris parabis, with a twin turbo vs. a single turbo.

Chevy did seem to have a slight advantage on the straights at the first few races (1 - 2 mph?), but was at a disadvantage in Brazil after the turbo switch by 1 - 2 mph, so this seemingly has added about 3 mph to Honda's topline speed.

Adjusting for drivers' past oval competency and using a small data set from the test last month at Indy, Chevy had a slight advantage (about 1 mph), and now Honda looks like it will have a 2 mph advantage with their engine/turbo. That is huge at Indy.

[doitagain]

In a professional racing series...

I like the new avatar

[Oben]

OK, here's the rub. Chevy (Penske) was not aware of the verbal agreement that they would allow the turbos to be tweaked. Chevy (Penske) looked at the 2 choices: single turbo and twin turbo. They knew the single turbo would spool up slower but would most likely be the best on the super speedways. Here's the kicker. They took a close look at the compressor map on the single turbo and saw that it would run most of it's time in a very inefficient part of the map. So seeing that the single was not well matched to the engine, they chose the twin turbos. Meanwhile Honda got a verbal agreement to tweak the single turbo and the other manufacturers didn't know about this agreement. That last part is speculation on my part, if they knew about it, then too bad, but if they didn't know about it, they have a legitimate gripe.

And Penske/Chevy would like to force Honda to use that inefficient turbo at least until the midpoint of the year when Honda can petition to be allowed to re-homologate.

We saw the efficiency advantage at Long Beach where Chevy teams were doing two-stop strategies and Honda teams did three. That is a huge advantage that goes a long way towards guaranteeing Chevy wins every race until the turbo change is allowed.

IMO if they are successful arguing that Honda has to re-homologate, when that time rolls around they will be challenging again saying that the HP difference isn't sufficient to allow re-homologation. I can't remember what the percentage difference has to be before re-homologation is allowed, but I would bet that the peak HP numbers aren't all that different between the two engines.

IMO the issue was resolved fairly. If anything Honda got screwed at Long Beach when they were not allowed to make a change that had been agreed upon last year. So Penske/Chevy already managed to game the rules and eliminate a big disadvantage they had due to changing engines en masse at LB.

I guess they'd like to push that gamesmanship as far as they can.

[Glenn]

And Penske/Chevy would like to force Honda to use that inefficient turbo at least until the midpoint of the year when Honda can petition to be allowed to re-homologate.

We saw the efficiency advantage at Long Beach where Chevy teams were doing two-stop strategies and Honda teams did three. That is a huge advantage that goes a long way towards guaranteeing Chevy wins every race until the turbo change is allowed.

IMO if they are successful arguing that Honda has to re-homologate, when that time rolls around they will be challenging again saying that the HP difference isn't sufficient to allow re-homologation. I can't remember what the percentage difference has to be before re-homologation is allowed, but I would bet that the peak HP numbers aren't all that different between the two engines.

IMO the issue was resolved fairly. If anything Honda got screwed at Long Beach when they were not allowed to make a change that had been agreed upon last year. So Penske/Chevy already managed to game the rules and eliminate a big disadvantage they had due to changing engines en masse at LB.

I guess they'd like to push that gamesmanship as far as they can.

You are probably correct. You uncovered a problem with using power to allow re-homologation. The number is 2.5% and I'm betting Honda doesn't have an issue with power. The problem lies in their poor fuel mileage and there is nothing in the rules about that.

[9rows]

A professional racing series does not do "verbal agreements".

If, in fact, the questions were raised during the selection process, the question would be answered in written form and given to all parties.

In a professional racing series...

Verbal refers to any idea expressed in words...written or spoken

I believe you meant "oral agreements"

[crispy]

I like the new avatar

You inspired me.

[Supertuner]

]And Penske/Chevy would like to force Honda to use that inefficient turbo at least until the midpoint of the year when Honda can petition to be allowed to re-homologate.[/B]

We saw the efficiency advantage at Long Beach where Chevy teams were doing two-stop strategies and Honda teams did three. That is a huge advantage that goes a long way towards guaranteeing Chevy wins every race until the turbo change is allowed.

IMO if they are successful arguing that Honda has to re-homologate, when that time rolls around they will be challenging again saying that the HP difference isn't sufficient to allow re-homologation. I can't remember what the percentage difference has to be before re-homologation is allowed, but I would bet that the peak HP numbers aren't all that different between the two engines.

IMO the issue was resolved fairly. If anything Honda got screwed at Long Beach when they were not allowed to make a change that had been agreed upon last year. So Penske/Chevy already managed to game the rules and eliminate a big disadvantage they had due to changing engines en masse at LB.

I guess they'd like to push that gamesmanship as far as they can.

The re homologation period is for the engine not, spec supplier parts. The turbo does not fall under the same rules, Honda doesn't make it. The reality is that being a spec supplier part the league has the right to allow changes for what ever reason at what ever time. Without consulting or notifying any one.

Another very popular series in this country changes these types of things all the time at any time they feel. It's not killing them.

[Oben]

The re homologation period is for the engine not, spec supplier parts. The turbo does not fall under the same rules, Honda doesn't make it. The reality is that being a spec supplier part the league has the right to allow changes for what ever reason at what ever time. Without consulting or notifying any one.

Another very popular series in this country changes these types of things all the time at any time they feel. It's not killing them.

I agree that the turbo is not a homologated part---that is the explanation given by the Series for approving the change---but apparently Penske/Chevy don't agree. They say that Honda can't change the turbo housing. So let's say they win their appeal (I don't believe they will): under what circumstances can Honda change the housing? The only other point in time that I can see is midseason re-homologation.

[SpeedwayRyan]

Verbal refers to any idea expressed in words...written or spoken

I believe you meant "oral agreements"

One of the definitions for "verbal":

expressed in spoken words; oral rather than written: verbal communication; verbal agreement.

[ndcrs]

You can't handle the truth.

i thought someone would catch that.

[Supertuner]

I agree that the turbo is not a homologated part---that is the explanation given by the Series for approving the change---but apparently Penske/Chevy don't agree. They say that Honda can't change the turbo housing. So let's say they win their appeal (I don't believe they will): under what circumstances can Honda change the housing? The only other point in time that I can see is midseason re-homologation.

Do you mean the re appeal? Honda already has won the appeal and the housing were in use at Brasil.

And I would guess that Penkse/Chevy don't agree they are sort of biased. And the next re homologation period is coming soon anyway. This is mostly crap storm since it will be in use for Indy.

[sifaka]

As someone with no expertise in the technical issues who is just fan of Indycar racing I hope that this whole issue gets dropped. The engines currently seem pretty evenly balanced, maybe within 0.5% of each other. This isn't a 1994 PC-23 stock block engine difference. Yeah, maybe Honda outmaneuvered Penske on this one, but it still seems that the end result is within the competitive margin. I think it adds interest to the series of teams are balancing RC performance with Speedway performance and having to choose which they want to emphasize. I'm hoping that the single turbo Honda does have some advantage over the TT-Chevy. It's nice to actually have some differences between the engines and cars. It would be nice to eventually get back to the point where someone could create something like the PC-23, even if it completely busted any sense of parity.

[Racing Steward]

Chevy has appealed the appeal ruling in Honda's favor...per Jenna Fryer tweet.

Chevy has won 4 races. Honda zilch.

Is Chevy that worried about Indy?

No but Penske/Cindric (B!tch & Moan King/Prince) sure are.

My aggravation with Mr. Penske is growing by the day.

[Muskie4041]

Penske wants to win. Only on TrackForum would that be considered a bad thing.

[Racing Steward]

Penske wants to win. Only on TrackForum would that be considered a bad thing.

And he IS winning. 4 out of 4. Not too bad is it.

Honda is simply trying to get better and they added the new turbo, guess what? Penske still won. He needs shut his damn mouth and focus on his own team and quit b!tchin and moanin all year long. There is no case, they lost. Its over. On to Indy. Shut up and race.

[Oben]

Do you mean the re appeal? Honda already has won the appeal and the housing were in use at Brasil.

And I would guess that Penkse/Chevy don't agree they are sort of biased. And the next re homologation period is coming soon anyway. This is mostly crap storm since it will be in use for Indy.

Yeah. I mean the re-appeal.

[Supernova]

I knew this was going to happen. When they said possible legal action I knew they weren't going to sit on it. Too much money has been handed to the IICS by Chevrolet/GM and they are not going to rest. The way things are heading, I don't think Chevy will last the five years with the IICS. The IICS better make it right.

[indybail]

Hey, if Jim Voyles says Honda is good to go, that's enough for me. Let's race.

[Maelochs]

One option we all have is to watch all the political games get played out and not get caught up in every issue, and every piece of spin about every issue, so that we can actually think for ourselves and enjoy the racing series.

If Roger wants to appeal an appeal, and Honda wants to appeal an appealed appeal ... so? Why should I invest any emotion in that. I read the news I don't cry over every death and laugh with joy after every birth (I would be simultaneously laughing and crying 24-7 if that were the case.)

If people choose to get upset, it seems kind of lame that they come here and blame Roger Penske for that choice. Roger appealed an appeal; he didn't hold a gun to anyone's head and say, "Get all worked up about this or die!"

I am pretty sure Roger Penske takes responsibility for his actions; I know I do, for mine. Others have other options, but Not taking responsibility for ones actions does not make those actions someone else's fault, it just mean that person isn't big enough to accept responsibility for the choices he or she has made.

Seems to me in every form of racing this political infighting goes on non-stop. The only reason IndyCar fans haven't seen it (much) is because there was so little competition (and even with spec everything, we had that fifth-spring debate.) Now that IndyCar is stepping up to be a real racing series like it was for the first 90 years of its history, we will see more of this stuff. Get used to it, get over it, or blame it on the rest of the world, but it's coming.

I am not the only one glad to see it. This sort of stuff makes everyone (including IndyCar) raise their games. Sort of ... that Competition effect, you know?

[Flat n the S's]

Three parties involved in this dispute, Honda, Chevy & Indycar. Seems to me Indycar is trying to do their job by maintaining parity between engine manufactures...That is what they said they would do if needed, right from the beginning! The update to Honda turbos was designed to help even out the low-end torque disadvantage Honda complained about during the first three events of the year which were very evident in the 1st gear slow speed corners on road and street course's. In Brazil the Honda Turbo update seems to have shown a closer match between Honda & Chevy and the Chevy still found a way to win for the fourth straight event! If Indcar is happy with the parity project implementation...Chevy and Honda should be too!

Looks like Chevy & Honda are set to perform more evenly from here on out, so why not just wait and see if any new competitive advantage materializes and if it does, let the effective party bring their new claim to Indycar for review and corrective action if needed. If Indycar has really done a good job & delivered the parity...no knew claims should need to be made by either side. Time to just go racing!

[Swaze]

And he IS winning. 4 out of 4. Not too bad is it.

Honda is simply trying to get better and they added the new turbo, guess what? Penske still won. He needs shut his damn mouth and focus on his own team and quit b!tchin and moanin all year long. There is no case, they lost. Its over. On to Indy. Shut up and race.

Exactly

Not only has Penske won every race so far (in large part because he had the fastest engine that makes the best fuel mileage) but he wants to ensure that he wins every race and that his engine competition isn't allowed to actually compete.

Airborn said earlier in this thread that it appears that Honda might now have a 2 MPH advantage on the straights and I'm sure that is true. While that would be important at Indy......you know what's much more important over the course of 500 Miles? FUEL MILEAGE

Chevy at this point definitely has better fuel mileage than Honda and at the 500 that will be much more important than a couple MPH top speed. If the Chevy's can run 2 or 3 laps longer per stint that is a massive advantage by the time you get to the end of the race when they can either get by on one less stop or do a quick splash-n-go.

[Muskie4041]

I'm sure he wants to win all 19 races. The other owners should too.

[heliogordy]

My football team has won all 4 games so far this year. My opponents and the league come to me and say, "Hey, I know this isn't WRITTEN DOWN anywhere...don't you remember that we agreed if one team was really killing it early on, we agreed to let the team getting it's @ss kicked have 13 players on the field instead of eleven. This is your oral notification...remember we all talked about this...sometime...uh...I KNOW none of us have it written down...but don't you remember?? You don't...Well, Jeziz, God...you've already WON all four races this year...why you gotta be so greedy?? I KNOW all of the experts have said that our teams strength would come in the next game, but we wanna add those extra 2 players (our 13 to your 11) anyway...oh, and the next game is the SUPER BOWL.....Why do you have to be so SELFISH...you've done your due diligence and fairly and squarely kicked everyone's @ss so far...why can't we ALL have some wins and a trophy...don't be so GREEDY".

[Neshaminy]

How much of the populations wasn't alive in 1972-75 and have no idea what on Earth "gate" has to do with anything......perhaps the waste "gate"? But then again I always wonder why it would be "raining cats and dogs".

Now continue on with your controversial dilemma of the size of one compared to the power of two.

[Racing Steward]

Exactly

Not only has Penske won every race so far (in large part because he had the fastest engine that makes the best fuel mileage) but he wants to ensure that he wins every race and that his engine competition isn't allowed to actually compete.

Airborn said earlier in this thread that it appears that Honda might now have a 2 MPH advantage on the straights and I'm sure that is true. While that would be important at Indy......you know what's much more important over the course of 500 Miles? FUEL MILEAGE

Chevy at this point definitely has better fuel mileage than Honda and at the 500 that will be much more important than a couple MPH top speed. If the Chevy's can run 2 or 3 laps longer per stint that is a massive advantage by the time you get to the end of the race when they can either get by on one less stop or do a quick splash-n-go.

Agreed. What have I always said about Roger? When he has the advantage its just racing, when someone else has it, its cheating. Dont be fooled by the "professional motto" of Mr. Penske. He b!tches and moans right up there with the best of them (Chip & Cindric)

[Glenn]

I admire what Roger Penske has done. He has the best Indycar team right now because he's smart and hires the right people and lets them do their jobs. Plus, if he did not know about this "verbal" or "oral" agreement, he has every right to be pissed. They chose the twin turbo because I'm guessing they were SMART enough to figure out that the single turbo was operating in a very inefficient part of the compressor map. Now, this oral/verbal agreement appears out of nowhere.

Roger didn't get where he is by letting people take advantage of him. As far as I'm concerned he has every right to pursue this appeal.

[Racing Steward]

I admire what Roger Penske has done. He has the best Indycar team right now because he's smart and hires the right people and lets them do their jobs. Plus, if he did not know about this "verbal" or "oral" agreement, he has every right to be pissed. They chose the twin turbo because I'm guessing they were SMART enough to figure out that the single turbo was operating in a very inefficient part of the compressor map. Now, this oral/verbal agreement appears out of nowhere.

Roger didn't get where he is by letting people take advantage of him. As far as I'm concerned he has every right to pursue this appeal.

He already did.....he lost. On to Indy. They have no case. Honda's change was agreed upon and fully legal within the rules. Nothing more to discuss. And why is a re-appeal even being allowed/considered? Its done.

Let me just say I have HUGE respect for what Penske has done with that team. Arguably one of the greatest race teams ever put together. The guy puts great cars on the track and has a long resume of success. But he's always been a moaner and its annoying.

[Glenn]

But he's always been a moaner and its annoying.

Sounds like he'd make a good addition to Track Forum.

EDIT: I could have gone another direction, but at least I kept it clean.

[Racing Steward]

Sounds like he'd make a good addition to Track Forum.

EDIT: I could have gone another direction, but at least I kept it clean.

He would be a fine addition to TF

[Vassago]

Some of the stuff I'm reading here is beyond pathetic. Despite the Ganassi rout over the past four years and everyone more or less hoping to see the Dario saga end, this is not about the turbos, Honda and Chevy. The wrath towards Penske is still beyond anything else, judging by some of the comments here, I guess most people won't mind Dario and/or Ganassi winning titles until 2025 only to prevent Penske from winning one himself. Pathetic.