What to do with car numbers associated with Racer's death (or retirement)? The Poll.

**red5champ** · 05-07-2012 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by Ydawg

The guy *never* won a championship and his win total doesn't even break half-dozen
and he ran for four seasons. Why are we having this debate?
He doesn't even make it into the same breath
as the top 10 Indycar drivers of all time. I'm sorry he lost his life in a race car
He could have been a great driver. He may have even been a multi-time Indy
champ with Penske. A life defintely lost too soon. But the bottom line is his career
stats don't fit the bill for the pedestal that some people are putting him on. Come
on folks ... get real.

As for the "he was a great person argument" - that is great. We have trophys
named after other drivers such as the Scott Brayton award in May.
Eddie Sacks was a great guy who was absolutely *loved* by the fans.
I guess he perished too long ago for anyone to make a stir now days.
I really don't understand why this keeps coming back up except
some ex-champcar fans want to just stir up some crap. Let. it. go.

and......

Originally Posted by Zeroninety

The "only five wins, and no championships" arguments several posters have made reminds me of the occasional arguments that Gilles Villeneuve wasn't anything special, since he only won six GPs, and no championships. Try suggesting that on the Autosport forum, if you enjoy a good flamewar.

(It also reminds me of all the bickering about engine competition here lately--as good as Greg was, there just wasn't much he or anyone could do with that Mercedes lump in '99. Not as bad as the Lotus, but not a good engine at all. His win at Homestead that year is petty remarkable, in retrospect).

Thank you for this post

red5

**red5champ** · 05-07-2012 06:46 AM

Firstly I want to thank Gonzo from sharing some fascinating quotes from fellow CART drivers at the time. It's a shame that rather than those who never saw him race wish to say hs number shouldn't be un-re-retired and simply want this thread closed or attack gonzo in a personal manner rather than hear and learn about who Greg Moore actually was and why those that would like to see the number still retired feel that way.

Originally Posted by Paul Tracy
"I remember his first race at Homestead. I fell out of the race early and he was coming through the field and making outside passes and I remember thinking this guy is crazy! But he was making these outside passes work and it was unbelievable to see. That was my first memory of him as a competitor. I thought, Man, this guy is going to be tough once he gets it all figured out."

Back in 1996 he started the year very strong. I felt he did better than Zanardi who had the full support of Team Target and the PPG cup winner Jimmy Vasser that year. Greg was leading at Rio the second race, and then at the speedway of Nazareth, he was passing guys like Fitttipaldi and whoever around the outside of turn 5 early on! that was when I knew this guy was going to be something real special. One of those drivers that comes a long every 10 years or so. He had a lot of bad luck and his results don't reflect how well he ran in the soul Player's #99 those first 2 years.
I remember when his motor broke at all places at the Marlboro 500 at Fontana in the closing stages. His first win was beautifull in the respect that he managed to hold off Michael Andretti who I always felt was the best driver at that period but never had the ultimate package who was always the king at Milwaukee and to see how gracious he was to win for the first time and honoured made me a fan for life.
His win at Rio in 1998 where he was sideways coming out of turn 4 trying to catch Zanardi just a couple of laps before and then that amazing switch and then dive to the outside doing the impossible showed how natural and special he was around that flat bumpy roval to do what no one had ever done there before at Emerson Fittipaldi Speedway. Not many drivers and you can put all time greats into this could find grip where this guy could on the ovals. And the ironic thing is he would have come with Penske in the IRL and the haters that never knew him would have seen just how special this guy was.

I also never knew how Jackie Stewart felt that he was trying to snatch him up for Formula 1 and spotted him from an early age. I guess he saw him when he was trying to get his man Gil de Ferran to come on over.

Those comparing him to Brayton as a driver are just laughable. I liked Brayton but him and Moore were two different drivers and I wish people would still chucking Moore in with Brayton as just another driver that got killed doing what he loved and didn't win much.

**goldie19** · 05-07-2012 08:28 AM

Red, this isn't about knocking Greg or CART or CCWS. To my knowledge no open wheel series has ever retired a number other than CART with this one. When Greg passed, Sam Schmidt was running the 99, and CART had nothing to do with Indy.

What you are asking is for the NBA to retire a number for the ABA. Same sport, different league. IndyCar never retired the number...they don't retire any numbers.

This is NEVER going to happen, and the fact that it won't, or that some fans don't want it to, doesn't mean we don't respect or like or LOVE Greg! There is no reason, statistically, to retire the number. Many great men have passed on in racing. We simply don't retire their numbers. It's a complete insult to every other driver who died to pick one over the other!

Again, this has NOtHING to do with Greg or his record...it's just something that isn't done!

**goldie19** · 05-07-2012 08:33 AM

For the record, I am very glad that I was at Michigan in 1998 to see one of his wins. A great weekend spoiled by an ugly crash, but still, glad to have seen Greg win.

I was in at pit exit...had no idea about the results of that crash until driving home that evening

**nascarnation** · 05-07-2012 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by indyracefan

I liked Greg Moore. It's a shame he never got to race at Indy,

Actually he did race at Indy.
He lasted two laps before he lost it in 3 and wrecked in IROC 23.

**Ernest Miller** · 05-07-2012 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by gonzo

Like what?

Statues. Ernest

**Doc Austin** · 05-07-2012 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Ydawg

I really don't understand why this keeps coming back up except some ex-champcar fans want to just stir up some crap. Let. it. go.

I'm guessing this will go on for about 29 years.

**paper** · 05-07-2012 11:04 AM

imagine the internet in 1961 when Tony B was lost, I loved greg,, but I think of Tony B when I think of 99,, ya see ,, its generational,

**BADGER** · 05-07-2012 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by gonzo

Ohh, some new rationale! Fair enough, but you didn't share that comment before.
You clearly recognize him as "one of the best of his time", your words not mine, and the best of his time included such legends as Michael Andretti, Al Unser Jr., Alex Zanardi, Gil DeFerran, Bobby Rahal, Dario Franchitti, and Paul Tracy. So your statement is rather contradictory of itself. Unless you agree that you yourself are exaggerating his greatness by claiming he is "clearly one of the best of his time".

Actually my comment was shared on page 5 but you clearly are not taking time to read the responses unless they are agreeing with you.

**lotuspoweredbyford** · 05-07-2012 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by goldie19

Red, this isn't about knocking Greg or CART or CCWS. To my knowledge no open wheel series has ever retired a number other than CART with this one. When Greg passed, Sam Schmidt was running the 99, and CART had nothing to do with Indy.

What you are asking is for the NBA to retire a number for the ABA. Same sport, different league. IndyCar never retired the number...they don't retire any numbers.

This is NEVER going to happen, and the fact that it won't, or that some fans don't want it to, doesn't mean we don't respect or like or LOVE Greg! There is no reason, statistically, to retire the number. Many great men have passed on in racing. We simply don't retire their numbers. It's a complete insult to every other driver who died to pick one over the other!

Again, this has NOtHING to do with Greg or his record...it's just something that isn't done!

Like I said earlier, even though I considered Greg a friend, I do agree with goldie here.

I understand why CART fans want it retired, but I think a trophy or honor is a better idea here.

**Kurt Cobain** · 05-07-2012 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Ydawg

He could have been a great driver.

And that's where you're wrong. He already was a great driver.

**lotuspoweredbyford** · 05-07-2012 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Kurt Cobain

He already was a great driver.

Agreed.

QFT.

**goldie19** · 05-07-2012 12:21 PM

Not to hijack, but what is QFT? I've seen it a few times today

**Deutsch** · 05-07-2012 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by goldie19

Not to hijack, but what is QFT? I've seen it a few times today

Apparently "Quoted For Truth"

**NSRSBoiler** · 05-07-2012 12:30 PM

I never understood retiring racecar numbers. It's one thing to retire a number/jersey of a great athlete in football, hockey, baseball etc because they usually have it hanging from the rafters for all to see. But a retired racecar # does the opposite. It takes that # off the track. I prefer to see those #'s again. I like seeing Tags in the #98 because it reminds me of the great month of May Wheldon had last year. And when I see someone else in that #98 years later, it will still bring back good memories. Sure the tragedy will come to mind, but the good memories will always last too.

**jandj** · 05-07-2012 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by goldie19

Not to hijack, but what is QFT? I've seen it a few times today

It means someone else posted something you agree with, or supports something you already said thereby "proving" you were right..
Kind of like "Activist Judges", which means any Judge who's decision you don't agree with.

**rrrr** · 05-07-2012 01:19 PM

No one mentions that a bonehead move by Moore ended Emerson Fittipaldi's racing career. The good has to be measured with the not-so-good...

**dog-ring** · 05-07-2012 01:22 PM

Never retire a number.............

**red5champ** · 05-07-2012 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by rrrr

No one mentions that a bonehead move by Moore ended Emerson Fittipaldi's racing career. The good has to be measured with the not-so-good...

It wasn't a nice crash for Emerson by any means and was Greg's fault but bthut not at intent and is racing. taking risks and trying to pass where others would think twice was part of Greg's driving, he took risks, particularly on the outside of ovals which made him a very exciting driver and talent but in his first year did mean he made a mistake or two like all rookies.

**gonzo** · 05-07-2012 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by goldie19

Red, this isn't about knocking Greg or CART or CCWS. To my knowledge no open wheel series has ever retired a number other than CART with this one. When Greg passed, Sam Schmidt was running the 99, and CART had nothing to do with Indy.

What you are asking is for the NBA to retire a number for the ABA. Same sport, different league. IndyCar never retired the number...they don't retire any numbers.

This is NEVER going to happen, and the fact that it won't, or that some fans don't want it to, doesn't mean we don't respect or like or LOVE Greg! There is no reason, statistically, to retire the number. Many great men have passed on in racing. We simply don't retire their numbers. It's a complete insult to every other driver who died to pick one over the other!

Again, this has NOtHING to do with Greg or his record...it's just something that isn't done!

Now I am not for a second trying to compare Moore to Gilles, but why is Gilles so revered not just in Italy but around the world when his record was nothing special. He only had six wins in 68 starts. There is a bronze bust of him at the entrance to Fiorano, there is a race circuit named after him, San Marino named a corner and paint his name on the grid, Zolder named a corner after him, Canada Post issued a stamp, he is in the Canadian Motorsports Hall of Fame, a 30th anniversary tribute at Foirano this year, and many other points of honor I have missed, all this for a man who only had six wins over a five year career.

**gonzo** · 05-07-2012 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by BADGER

you clearly are not taking time to read the responses unless they are agreeing with you.

Ya, that must be it Badger....

**Doc Austin** · 05-07-2012 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by rrrr

No one mentions that a bonehead move by Moore ended Emerson Fittipaldi's racing career.

And Emmo could have very easily killed Al jr when he took him out from behind at Indy in 89, though that does not define his career.

All drivers make boneheaded moves. Sometimes people even get killed. Not everyone remembers that Mario ran over and killed a crewman at (IIRC) Handford in 1969. Jacky Ickx has been involved in about 5 or 6 fatalities. Accidents are part of the game and they happen to just about everyone.

**rrrr** · 05-07-2012 02:15 PM

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's a good story. The photo of Christian Fittipaldi, Adrian Fernandez, and Max Papis vividly illustrates the crushing grief these men experienced. Papis, always ebuillant and talkative, was barely able to speak.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing...ohn&id=4608427

**Doc Austin** · 05-07-2012 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by gonzo

Now I am not for a second trying to compare Moore to Gilles, but why is Gilles so revered not just in Italy but around the world when his record was nothing special. He only had six wins in 68 starts.

He was fun to watch because he was always hanging it out. Of course, that's how he got killed too.

..... all this for a man who only had six wins over a five year career.

As compared to Schumacher's 91, seven championship and (maybe) still counting.

For comparison, Ralf Schumacher won six grands prix and so did Riccardo Patrese and Jacques Laffite.

**MichaelP** · 05-07-2012 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by red5champ

and......

Thank you for this post

red5

And yet, nobody in F1 is clamoring to retire #27.

**MichaelP** · 05-07-2012 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by nascarnation

Actually he did race at Indy.
He lasted two laps before he lost it in 3 and wrecked in IROC 23.

I'm guessing you chose to ignore this iteration of the same sentiment:
"So, let me see if this is right: No one can ever again run the number 99 in the Indianapolis 500 in honor of a guy who never raced in the Indianapolis 500?"

**El sween** · 05-07-2012 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by rrrr

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's a good story. The photo of Christian Fittipaldi, Adrian Fernandez, and Max Papis vividly illustrates the crushing grief these men experienced. Papis, always ebuillant and talkative, was barely able to speak.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing...ohn&id=4608427

Thanks for posting the link. Good article

**red5champ** · 05-07-2012 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by rrrr

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's a good story. The photo of Christian Fittipaldi, Adrian Fernandez, and Max Papis vividly illustrates the crushing grief these men experienced. Papis, always ebuillant and talkative, was barely able to speak.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing...ohn&id=4608427

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing...ohn&id=4608427

thanks for the link, some very interesting quotes there and stories about Greg. I would love to copy some quotes but it would be the whole article!

here's some of my favorite.

His Indy car racing debut on the tricky original quad-corner Homestead-Miami Speedway layout was nothing short of sensational. Greg qualified sixth, but lost a lap when he was penalized for a pit infraction on the 70th of 133 laps. In the second half of the race, he drove through the 26-car field to unlap himself and worked all the way back up to seventh place by the checkered flag, turning the fastest lap of the race with just two tours remaining.

Vasser, who went on to win the 1996 CART championship, scored his first race win that day at Homestead. But his abiding memory is of the precocious rookie who stole the spotlight.

"I was leading and pulling away from second place when this blue car suddenly appeared in my mirrors," recalled Vasser. "My guys told me not to worry because he was a lap down, but he went around the outside of me in Turn 3 and I was glad he wasn't on the lead lap."

and

"When Greg first came on the scene, I thought, 'What a sharp, articulate, intelligent guy,'" said racing legend Mario Andretti. "He was very professional and mature for his age. He always had something to say, but he didn't ramble on. He said something meaningful. And of course his driving was just the same. He was going to make a mark for himself, no question."

"I think Greg was the best guy I ever raced on an oval," Dario continued. "He was unbelievable in those [CART] cars. You can slide a modern [IRL] Indy car around a bit; there's a certain sort of yaw you can drive it in, where it's not too much of a problem. But the old Champ Cars, they would slide, and if they slid once and you didn't catch it, if you allowed it to snap again, it would bite you. And Greg could just hang that thing out there all day! He just drove the thing on the edge, and I don't know of anybody else that did that."

"Greg would have won at least three championships and three Indy 500s," said Kanaan, another of Moore's closest friends on the circuit. "We would have been talking about him like we do Rick Mears or Al Unser Jr."