Worse than ANY IRL era bump day...

[Todd Gack]

No offense, but I think you've forgotten how bad some of the IRL era years were. Today was simply just as bad as some of the others, IMO.

Yes, 1997 was a bad one, with the locked in starters and minimum speed requirements. And the addition of the 2 starters to the end of the field.

But 1998 was better. 1999 Bump Day was better then 98'. 2000 Bump Day was terrific. 2001 Bump Day was unbelievable. 2002 Bump Day would have been great, had it not rained. 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 sucked, because the engine manufacturers decided to it would suck. It started to get better in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011. But its right back to where it was in 2003 again now. And likely worse now, because its a unified series again and teams and drivers were literally TOLD not to show up and bother because we were limiting the field to 33.

2 steps forward and 3 steps backward. Been going on for a couple of decades now.

[Todd Gack]

Then leave. Your overly negative attitude is not needed in this sport.

Overly negative, my ass. My attitude is exactly what is needed in this sport. And if it is to survive much longer, somebody better start listening to "us".

Don't like this part of TF? Don't hang out here. Some of us are upset to see our favorite month of the year, become a joke and a farce.

If you are cool with it, fine. Some of us aren't. And we count just as much as you do.

[jandj]

And likely worse now, because its a unified series again and teams and drivers were literally TOLD not to show up and bother because we were limiting the field to 33.

Ya think not having enough engines might have had more to do with it than "a unified series"?
Ya think ICS wanted it that way?
Ya EVER gonna run out of things to **** and moan about?
....starting to make Howard look like the biggest ICS supporter in the world....

[cpthornman]

Overly negative, my ass. My attitude is exactly what is needed in this sport. And if it is to survive much longer, somebody better start listening to "us"..

And that kind of attitude is what got us in this spot in the first place.

Don't like this part of TF? Don't hang out here. Some of us are upset to see our favorite month of the year, become a joke and a farce.

Then what were the IRL years? Because this is a helluva lot better.

[Todd Gack]

1. Ya think not having enough engines might have had more to do with it than "a unified series"?
2. Ya think ICS wanted it that way?
3. Ya EVER gonna run out of things to **** and moan about?

1. I could care less whose fault it was. All I know, is the field of 33 was set in April. There were engines. Never bought that line. And most in the sport don't buy it either.

2. Yes, I do.

3. I wish this sport gave me fewer things to ***** about. Maybe next year, it will.

[Todd Gack]

Then what were the IRL years? Because this is a helluva lot better.

First off, how old were you during the IRL years, you so disparage?

This isn't a "hell of a lot better". Those of us that saw both, know the score. Are the teams at the front better? Sure. Is the racing any better? Debatable. Are the fields lighter on participants? Yes. Was this month any more interesting then most of the IRL years? Not really.

The IRL put on some damn good races at Indy. Just as CART did. Just as the ICS has.

[cpthornman]

First off, how old were you during the IRL years, you so disparage?

I'm not even dignifying that with an answer after the crap you pulled in another topic.

Was this month any more interesting then most of the IRL years? Not really.

To you perhaps. I find it very interesting. New chassis, new engine with a lot of unknowns still, the turbos are back after a long hiatus, new up and coming drivers in competitive teams.

[cpthornman]

Ya think not having enough engines might have had more to do with it than "a unified series"?
Ya think ICS wanted it that way?
Ya EVER gonna run out of things to **** and moan about?
....starting to make Howard look like the biggest ICS supporter in the world....

For some people the split is still going on...

[Todd Gack]

For some people the split is still going on...

This has ZERO to do with "the split".

Myself and DaveL were on polar opposite sides of "the split". So was Crispy. So were a bunch of us who post here. We are over that now. Its been over for 5 years.

Me and Dave have gone at it many times in the past. But we all are on the same page on this one. I find myself and him now sharing many more opinions. And I don't think our views have changed much.

The Split is long over with. And we can't continue to blame it for our issues now.

[cpthornman]

And likely worse now, because its a unified series again and teams and drivers were literally TOLD not to show up and bother because we were limiting the field to 33.

I have yet to see any proof of this rumor.

[Todd Gack]

I'm not even dignifying that with an answer after the crap you pulled in another topic.

Its a very fair question to ask.

You have said you are 24 years old. That's great. We need many more young fans to come into the sport.

But you just cannot have a real solid basis on the IRL years, when you were so young during those years. In 2002 (the last year of what some of us call the true "IRL years") you were 14 years old. So how can you make a statement of how lousy the IRL years were, when you were that young?

[cpthornman]

This has ZERO to do with "the split".

I probably should have been more clear with this. I meant to say that the negativity from the split is still present with way too many people imo.

[Ren Butler]

There's complaining and then there's acting like it's the end of the world because of one bad thing.

Wow, that's quite an exaggeration about the alleged exaggeration...

LOL

[Ren Butler]

Hey, let's have another split argument. The last five minutes have been empty without one...

[Todd Gack]

I have yet to see any proof of this rumor.

Jay Howard has said it.

Pippa Mann has said it.

Davey Hamilton said it on the IC radio network on Friday afternoon.

Alex Lloyd has said it.

The Mike Shank saga?

Vitor Meira had money for a deal.

Why do you think Tyce Carlson was summoned to throw together a VERY last minute deal for Alesi? When Tyce wasn't even trying to put anything together for Indy? Because Alesi was needed to get to 33. And they needed a team to run him. He was #33.

[cpthornman]

Wow, that's quite an exaggeration about the alleged exaggeration...

LOL

Really now...

It fell long ago.

And this year did very little to prop it back off the ground.

I guess its "wait until next year" again.

[PenelopePitstop]

Ya think ICS wanted it that way?

They were in charge from start to finish. Don't you think they are deserving of the criticism?

[cpthornman]

Jay Howard has said it.

Pippa Mann has said it.

Davey Hamilton said it on the IC radio network on Friday afternoon.

Alex Lloyd has said it.

The Mike Shank saga?

Vitor Meira had money for a deal.

Why do you think Tyce Carlson was summoned to throw together a VERY last minute deal for Alesi? When Tyce wasn't even trying to put anything together for Indy? Because Alesi was needed to get to 33. And they needed a team to run him. He was #33.

Ok fair enough. Any links out of curiosity?

[cpthornman]

You have said you are 24 years old.

Then do the math.

That's great. We need many more young fans to come into the sport.

And displaying the kind of attitude you show will drive them away just as quick.

But you just cannot have a real solid basis on the IRL years, when you were so young during those years. In 2002 (the last year of what some of us call the true "IRL years") you were 14 years old. So how can you make a statement of how lousy the IRL years were, when you were that young?

Who in the **** are you to judge my intelligence from when I was that age? See that's the attitude I'm talking about. This whole "Oh you're young so you don't know anything." You know how damn pretentious that is?

[jandj]

They were in charge from start to finish. Don't you think they are deserving of the criticism?

You guys honestly think ICS knew Lotus would turn out the way it did?
What possible advantage is it to the series to only have 33 at Indy?
All I read is along the line of "Everyone knows..." or "he said..."
Sure, there's some criticism that's deserved but lately things have devolved to criticism of damn near everything and most of it we've heard before - again and again and again....
Y'all enjoy your misery. I had a feeling it was a mistake to even open this page, you can bet your ass I won't make it again.

[DaveL]

Hey, let's have another split argument. The last five minutes have been empty without one...

This has nothing to do with the split at this point. Fans who were on opposite sides of the fence then are now on the same side that does not like watching slightly more than an hour of casual laid back run whatever four laps you're comfortable with time trials followed by nothing but race practice on Bump Day.

[cpthornman]

This has nothing to do with the split at this point. Fans who were on opposite sides of the fence then are now on the same side that does not like watching slightly more than an hour of casual laid back run whatever four laps you're comfortable with time trials followed by nothing but race practice on Bump Day.

Agreed! But I think it's time to stop going nuts about how bad things are and start discussing solutions to it.

[crispy]

Agreed! But I think it's time to stop going nuts about how bad things are and start discussing solutions to it.

The solution is don't give the engine manufacturers the keys to the kingdom...

[mds24]

I do not get much time to watch but I had Saturday off so I followed what was going on at the track while working outside on my house and yard.
I came away during the day why not get rid of the top 9 deal.
I liked the change giving cars more than one shot at qualifying so why not take that, have cars qualify and allow anyone during the day have the ability to pull their time and make another run if they so chose, but they risk losingg their time for the day if they cannot complete the attempt or they risk dropping significantly back.
I kept thinking the end Saturday was too contrived and I would have preferred an ending with teams - any team - deciding if they want to run again and improve their position, risking losing their position.
The way things were this year, that might have been more exciting.
The last couple of hours Saturday lost a lot to me as the teams that tried for the pole knew they would not fall below top 9 in worst case. I think there needed to be more risk to going for the pole.

[DaveL]

Agreed! But I think it's time to stop going nuts about how bad things are and start discussing solutions to it.

Been there, done that too. I've been advocating a return of the free market: Publish specs, let anyone show up with a legal piece of equipment be it an engine or a chassis as long as it meets the specs, and have at it. That's how they did it for over 80 years. Barring that, they could have returned to the original IRL engine model, which I will concede worked very well, that allowed teams to purchase as many engines kits they could afford, or buy as many completed engines from third party vendors they could afford. Either way, we'd have had a helluva lot more cars trying to make the field this year and Bump Day would have mattered for something.

[PenelopePitstop]

Sure, there's some criticism that's deserved but

If criticism is deserved then why are you objecting to it?

Has there ever been a smaller crowd at IMS on Bump Day?

[cpthornman]

The last couple of hours Saturday lost a lot to me as the teams that tried for the pole knew they would not fall below top 9 in worst case. I think there needed to be more risk to going for the pole.

That was my only gripe of the shootout. It's obvious the "brain-trust" calling the shots wants to see the battle for the pole go all the way till the gun. As do all of us methinks. I do like the top 9 idea because honestly who past that has any shot at the pole? (ok maybe a few sometimes but odds are...) Because if they go out I doubt many people will be all that interested. I saw the shootout as a way (there are many of course) to cut the "fat" from the previous format of qualifying. What's probably going to happen is a compromise of the two because no system is perfect.

[PenelopePitstop]

I think it's time to stop going nuts about how bad things are and start discussing solutions to it.

What you saw were the solutions that IMS and INDYCAR came up with. They don't listen to us, they figure these things out all by themselves.

Look at the crowd those solutions produced today.

[cpthornman]

Barring that, they could have returned to the original IRL engine model, which I will concede worked very well, that allowed teams to purchase as many engines kits they could afford, or buy as many completed engines from third party vendors they could afford. Either way, we'd have had a helluva lot more cars trying to make the field this year and Bump Day would have mattered for something.

Agreed. Just make sure the engines have turbos. But on the flip side money was pretty good then so there would have to be some tweaking on that with the lack of cash flow going on in this country. On a personal note. I have always though CART's racing formula was better and IRL's "political" (can't think of a better word) formula was better.

[Doyouloveit?]

Yes, 1997 was a bad one, with the locked in starters and minimum speed requirements. And the addition of the 2 starters to the end of the field.

But 1998 was better. 1999 Bump Day was better then 98'. 2000 Bump Day was terrific. 2001 Bump Day was unbelievable. 2002 Bump Day would have been great, had it not rained. 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 sucked, because the engine manufacturers decided to it would suck. It started to get better in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011. But its right back to where it was in 2003 again now. And likely worse now, because its a unified series again and teams and drivers were literally TOLD not to show up and bother because we were limiting the field to 33.

2 steps forward and 3 steps backward. Been going on for a couple of decades now.

Maybe this year's qualifying can be compared to 1997 and the next year will be back to what we expect?