Move on, stop killing our momentum

[DanFan]

Why is it that we must destroy all positive momentum every year. Move on. Yes Wheldon;s death was a tragedy, but the best ways to prevent it from happening again is to eliminate pack racing (check), and prevent wheel ramping (check). Yet drivers are still unhappy. Regardless of what the drivers or teams seam to believe, the fact renains that pole placement played no rSole in Wheldon's death. Sorry to dissapoint, but it didn't. just ask the doctors who where actually there. Secondly, stop with this aero kit crap. We've already delayed once, don't delay again. The teams can either buy an aero kit or just stay with Dallara. Simple as that. Also, there is nothing in the rules tht says a :kit" can't just be different sidepods OR different wings, OR different engine covering. It doesn't HAVE to be all three options. Seams like a good way to produce aero kits and save the teams a little bit of money. So,......STOP WHINNING!!!!!! Randy Bernard, if you're reading this, take the reigns and end the constant negativety QUICK. We would never ever see this stuff aired with NASCAR after a fantastic Daytona 500, or in F1 after a great Monaco GP. Why do we allow it here?

[FTHurley]

We would never ever see this stuff aired with NASCAR after a fantastic Daytona 500, or in F1 after a great Monaco GP. Why do we allow it here?

Because in those series they're making a lot of money, while in IndyCar they're just spending a lot of money. Follow the incentives. NFL team owners don't go off the reservation because football is an enormous money-making machine. If it stopped making all that money, you'd see just as much squabbling among the rich guys over there as you do in IndyCar now.

[Formula Indy]

Because in those series they're making a lot of money, while in IndyCar they're just spending a lot of money. Follow the incentives. NFL team owners don't go off the reservation because football is an enormous money-making machine. If it stopped making all that money, you'd see just as much squabbling among the rich guys over there as you do in IndyCar now.

With all due respect, there was a lockout just last year in the NFL and the owners are all Billionaires. The NBA is full of money loosing teams and they just lost 1/3rd of their season.

[FTHurley]

With all due respect, there was a lockout just last year in the NFL and the owners are all Billionaires. The NBA is full of money loosing teams and they just lost 1/3rd of their season.

Fair enough, though I still say you see less day to day sniping, at least in public.

[cpthornman]

The NBA is full of money loosing teams

Kind of OT:To be honest I think that was a complete load of BS. You would have to have a negative IQ to loose money as an NBA team owner with how popular the market was getting pre-lockout.

[millrace]

Anyone who buys the argument that hitting a pole with one's head has A. Been addressed, and B. Not due to pole placement is naive and ......ugh (trying not to swear and call names here).

Think for a minute. The car turned in toward the racetrack and Dan's helmet contacted the pole. I can argue all day that it has not been, in any way, adressed going into this race.

Cars getting airborn can and will continue to happen, and until they protect a driver's head from coming direct contact with any part of the track or facility, they have done nothing to lessen the possibility of another occurrence.

This new car flies too. It just does so backwards instead. But pack racing is not, and has never been to blame. To blame is what happened, and what happened is Dan's helmet hit the frigging fence post.
Mark my words, they should be addressing the exposure of the helmet in the cockpit.

What has occurred instead is akin to Brayton's death being addressed by having grippier tires.

[cpthornman]

But pack racing is not, and has never been to blame.

It may not be 100% to blame but there is no question it was part of the equation. Saying otherwise is just being disingenuous.

To blame is what happened, and what happened is Dan's helmet hit the frigging fence post.

And to completely dismiss the engineers who determined that if the post was on the inside or not would not have mattered is completely ridiculous. And it doesn't take a lot of logic to figure out that it makes sense. That fence is going to flex when it's hit and when something is going that fast across it it's going to run into a post. Even if it's on the other side.

[millrace]

It may not be 100% to blame but there is no question it was part of the equation. Saying otherwise is just being disingenuous.



And to completely dismiss the engineers who determined that if the post was on the inside or not would not have mattered is completely ridiculous. And it doesn't take a lot of logic to figure out that it makes sense. That fence is going to flex when it's hit and when something is going that fast across it it's going to run into a post. Even if it's on the other side.

Which is why you design a new fence so that the posts are not going to make contact with a drivers head, or you design a cage structure into the chassis. What you don't do is pretend it has been addressed because it hasn't. Obviously, pack racing did not cause lots of head injuries in the last 15 yrs so saying that was the problem is completely wrong. It is an assumption and not reality. Reality is cars going airborn and hitting poles with helmets. It darn near could have happened with Conway and Power at Indy.

[cpthornman]

Which is why you design a new fence so that the posts are not going to make contact with a drivers heador you design a cage structure into the chassis.

Impractical. (speaking of the fence) And how will that cage work if there is a fire?

Obviously, pack racing did not cause lots of head injuries in the last 15 yrs so saying that was the problem is completely wrong. It is an assumption and not reality.

Nice way to describe your previous sentence. EDIT: The cars flying like that is the real problem. It's easier (and cheaper) to decrease the likelihood of cars launching rather than looking at the catch fence. To steal from doctor speak, trying to fix the fence is "treating the symptoms and not the disease."
Because the the "pack racing" that was going on then wasn't nearly as packed at it was at Vegas. And the pack racing caused this one. To deny it is denying reality. If all the cars were fairly strung out and maybe two or three wide in a couple of spots that 15 car wreck wouldn't have happened. If you even saw that wreck you could see how one driver's mistake gave many people absolutely no chance in that wreck. It of course caused a chain reaction of cars spinning, flying, flipping, and about everything else you see in a racing car wreck because many had simply no where to go. And this of course was because of how packed many the cars were together.

Reality is cars going airborn and hitting poles with helmets. It darn near could have happened with Conway and Power at Indy.

And the wreck at LVMS and at Indy were caused by two completely different things.

[br329]

Kind of OT:To be honest I think that was a complete load of BS. You would have to have a negative IQ to loose money as an NBA team owner with how popular the market was getting pre-lockout.

Take it for what its worth but the NBA claims that 22 teams lost money last season. Also maybe your getting NBA and NFL owners consused because the NBA market hasnt been all that great the last 5 or so years

[Parnelli64]

Anyone who buys the argument that hitting a pole with one's head has A. Been addressed, and B. Not due to pole placement is naive and ......ugh (trying not to swear and call names here).

Think for a minute. The car turned in toward the racetrack and Dan's helmet contacted the pole. I can argue all day that it has not been, in any way, adressed going into this race.

Cars getting airborn can and will continue to happen, and until they protect a driver's head from coming direct contact with any part of the track or facility, they have done nothing to lessen the possibility of another occurrence.

This new car flies too. It just does so backwards instead. But pack racing is not, and has never been to blame. To blame is what happened, and what happened is Dan's helmet hit the frigging fence post.
Mark my words, they should be addressing the exposure of the helmet in the cockpit.

What has occurred instead is akin to Brayton's death being addressed by having grippier tires.

one of us is in the wrong thread...

[cpthornman]

Take it for what its worth but the NBA claims that 22 teams lost money last season.

Right. But personally I don't buy it.

Also maybe your getting NBA and NFL owners consused because the NBA market hasnt been all that great the last 5 or so years

Right but the NBA market has steadily been on the rise with many more superstars coming into the spotlight.

[DanFan]

Wow. As HAS been stated in countless news magazines, papers, and newscasts, the pole would have caused just as much damage at those speeds on the other side of the fence. At those speeds and that amount of force, the fence bends to a point where the pole is somewhat exposed. This means regardless of how the fencing is designed, you will still hit the pole with your helmet. The difference is that one way you'll hit some fencing first which may or may not slow you down or change you trajectory. Bottom line is, this could have happened at any track. BTW, didn't Jeff Krosnoff die at Toronto because his head hit the pole and wasn't that on a road course with the fence on the "proper" side?

BTW, I don't appreciate being called out and basically called an i d i o t simply because I believe the theory here and you don't. The physics makes sense to me.

[cpthornman]

BTW, I don't appreciate being called out and basically called an i d i o t simply because I believe the theory here and you don't. The physics makes sense to me.

The physics makes sense to anyone with a basic grasp of the concept.

[gonzo]

Fair enough, though I still say you see less day to day sniping, at least in public.

Because it is heavily controlled! In IndyCar not so much.

[millrace]

Wow. As HAS been stated in countless news magazines, papers, and newscasts, the pole would have caused just as much damage at those speeds on the other side of the fence. At those speeds and that amount of force, the fence bends to a point where the pole is somewhat exposed.

True.

This means regardless of how the fencing is designed, you will still hit the pole with your helmet.

False.

Bottom line is, this could have happened at any track. BTW, didn't Jeff Krosnoff die at Toronto because his head hit the pole and wasn't that on a road course with the fence on the "proper" side?

And now you have sided with me. Fix the problem. The problem is helmets hitting fence poles. I didn't say anything about putting poles on one side or the other. That is an assumption due to cost constraints. What you do is figure how to design a fence that will solve the problem. Poles that support the fence will need to be out of the way. Then you figure out how much it will cost. And then you either pay for it or say "we can't afford safety". And we can get on with high speed oval racing instead of killing the sport by losing the balance that provides interest for all types of open wheel fans.

Marco flew after running into Graham. If he does that near a fence and flips over it could happen again. You can fix the fence or provide protection to a driver's head through redesigning the cockpit with some sort of cage (and by cage, I mean a structure that allows a driver to get in and out as freely as they do now- I don't recall Simona getting out on her own when she was upside down at Indy, by the way)

[gforcewill]

Why is it that we must destroy all positive momentum every year. Move on. Yes Wheldon;s death was a tragedy, but the best ways to prevent it from happening again is to eliminate pack racing (check), and prevent wheel ramping (check). Yet drivers are still unhappy. Regardless of what the drivers or teams seam to believe, the fact renains that pole placement played no rSole in Wheldon's death. Sorry to dissapoint, but it didn't. just ask the doctors who where actually there. Secondly, stop with this aero kit crap. We've already delayed once, don't delay again. The teams can either buy an aero kit or just stay with Dallara. Simple as that. Also, there is nothing in the rules tht says a :kit" can't just be different sidepods OR different wings, OR different engine covering. It doesn't HAVE to be all three options. Seams like a good way to produce aero kits and save the teams a little bit of money. So,......STOP WHINNING!!!!!! Randy Bernard, if you're reading this, take the reigns and end the constant negativety QUICK. We would never ever see this stuff aired with NASCAR after a fantastic Daytona 500, or in F1 after a great Monaco GP. Why do we allow it here?

Good post DanFan, and well said!

[cpthornman]

True.

Duh!

False.

Nice way to completely contradict yourself. It's a PROVEN FACT that it is true. If you can't see that then there is no point in discussing this.

The problem is helmets hitting fence poles.

Because flying/launching cars like that is TOTALLY ok. Get real.

[JohnMc]

Take it for what its worth but the NBA claims that 22 teams lost money last season. Also maybe your getting NBA and NFL owners consused because the NBA market hasnt been all that great the last 5 or so years

Sorry, but the NBA is on ESPN non-stop with LeBron everywhere and when the U.S. team played China in the 2008 Olympics, 1 billion people watched. Global money.

[millrace]

Nice way to completely contradict yourself. It's a PROVEN FACT that it is true. If you can't see that then there is no point in discussing this.

You are completely wrong. We have even seen new fence designs appearing on track forum. Any engineer with moderate talent could come up with a better fence idea. That isn't the problem. Cost is the problem. (and the fact that you seem to have hard time understanding the obvious).

Because flying/launching cars like that is TOTALLY ok. Get real.

Driver error and mechanical failure is what leads to launching cars. In other words, it happens. Unless they completely redesign what Indycars look like, they will not be preventing launches from occurring. Come back to me in a few years and if I'm wrong I'll admit it. I saw cars at Indy nearly pancake into the fence. I saw the carbashian failure that led to Marco launching off of Graham's wheels. They haven't solved it with this car. And they certainly haven't addressed helmet impact with fence poles.

You go back and watch a race with Mauri Rose's head sticking high out of the cockpit. Without a roll hoop he could have died on any roll over. So what did they do? They designed roll hoops. Aftare Zanardi's accident, they said- hey, these tubs aren't impenetrable. And they made them stouter. Why is it so hard to realize that cars going 225+ mph are not launch proof and that maybe it's time they consider the repercussions and how to protect the driver in the event of a launch.

It will happen. Maybe the cost will prohibit it for 10 more years, but it will happen. Because slowing cars down and making them single file isn't the answer. Especially when a Marco-Graham incident can occur anyway.

[cpthornman]

(and the fact that you seem to have hard time understanding the obvious).

And if you would read you would have seen that I stated that.

Driver error and mechanical failure is what leads to launching cars.

And pack racing raises the possibility of it exponentially. In terms of launching when what you described happens. I have never seen that many cars launch in one wreck at Vegas. Yes cars will always launch but I think everyone agrees that pack racing at those speeds was a disaster waiting to happen. It's a miracle we didn't loose another driver that weekend.
And yeah I don't like the catch fence all that well either. But to redesign it right now would cost a ton of money. Right now it just isn't possible. It's cheaper and more possible to change the way the car goes into the catch fence. Or the car for that matter.

I saw the carbashian failure that led to Marco launching off of Graham's wheels.

This stupid argument again? If you used your brain you would have seen that it was hit more from the side. Something it was NOT DESIGNED to do. To say it failed is simply false.

It will happen. Maybe the cost will prohibit it for 10 more years, but it will happen. Because slowing cars down and making them single file isn't the answer.

They haven't really slowed them all that much. (if at all) And single file sure does help. They knew they couldn't change the fence so they changed what they could change.

[millrace]

And pack racing raises the possibility of it exponentially.

Does it? Indycars have been racing in packs for years on 1.5 milers. You may think it does, but the evidence did not show that. We have the Wheldon incident where the chain reaction was a major problem, but with incidents like Dario's flight over Matsura, it was not pack racing, but simply driver error. Conway over Hunter-Reay? Car slowed from running out of fuel. The team should have brought him in the lap before. Again, human error. Any two cars racing closely can mix it up. Pack racing itself may actually create more awareness of closeness. This seemed to be the case at Texas many times. The cars are going nearly the same speed and aren't approaching a car with a 20mph difference.

Yes cars will always launch but I think everyone agrees that pack racing at those speeds was a disaster waiting to happen.

This is no more the case than saying the new car is a rear first pancake into the fence accident waiting to happen from lost grip and collecting another driver approaching on the high side.

The disaster was the loss of an incredible ambassador and race car driver. The accident itself was horrible, but if Dan had not hit a fence pole people would have said that despite the mayley, the car safety did it's job.

And yeah I don't like the catch fence all that well either. But to redesign it right now would cost a ton of money. Right now it just isn't possible. It's cheaper and more possible to change the way the car goes into the catch fence. Or the car for that matter.

Yeah, they should admit that they can't afford safety because that is the truth. Eddie Gossage's comments were ridiculous to say "As soon as someone shows us a better safety standard for our fences, we will change them". Rubbish. Anyone with a brain can see that it is a damn cheese grater. If you care that much then plunk down the money to at least do the design work on new fences. Don't just pretend all is well.

This stupid argument again? If you used your brain you would have seen that it was hit more from the side. Something it was NOT DESIGNED to do. To say it failed is simply false.

I saw the tires make contact because the stupid carbashians flexed and didn't fully cover the tires anyway. They are supposed to prevent cars from launching off of rear tires. It failed. Obviously.

[cpthornman]

This seemed to be the case at Texas many times.

The cars weren't NEARLY as packed at Texas versus Vegas.

The disaster was the loss of an incredible ambassador and race car driver. The accident itself was horrible, but if Dan had not hit a fence pole people would have said that despite the mayley, the car safety did it's job.

I wouldn't have been one of those people.

If you care that much then plunk down the money to at least do the design work on new fences.

Kind of hard to do when the money isn't there.

I saw the tires make contact because the stupid carbashians flexed and didn't fully cover the tires anyway.

Yeah because the bumper was designed for a rear hit not a sideswiping hit. (which the Marco/Graham incident was)

[TexManZero]

Oh boy, another dick slapping fest! Woo-hoo!

[PHJIndy]

I found the "pack racing" at Kentucky Speedway to be very entertaining last season.

[millrace]

Cpthornman,
By saying the cars weren't nearly as packed at Texas as they were at Vegas, in addition to the fact that there have been a whole bunch of races at Texas vs. One at Vegas, you are insinuating that Texas has not been a "pack racing" race. Hence, it would not fall under "an accident waiting to happen" as you said, nor "an exponential increase" in the liklihood of a disaster of launched cars.

Anyway, my point is, the cars need to be redesigned with better protection against helmet to fence pole collisions, or redesign the fences, or both. And in doing so, they would be acting to preserve the excitement of close racing while increasing driver safety. And that is the direction I want the series to go and express openly - in addition to admitting that the new car and the new aero changes have not improved the safety of a driver that may somehow get airborn.

[Openracer]

We should be capitalizing on this great season so far. Outside of the pavement problem in Belle Isle, the racing has been great and the 500 was fantastic. I expect tonight at Texas to be excellent also.

No complaints this year. Indycar has been very exciting this year. Just enjoy it.