Observation: crowd reaction 2011 KY versus 2012 Texas

[andyville99]

It's clear a lot of folks on here found the style of racing Sat night at TMS to be what they prefer. Having attended the 2011 KY race (and nearly all of them there) and this past Sat night's race at Texas, I thought they were both very good races, if not great. Very different types of races, but still darned good, IMO.

However, something really stood out to me as a very noticeable difference. At KY, the crowd was not only on their feet for the last 10-20 laps, but screaming and cheering loudly, especially during the last 2 laps. At TMS, while a lot, maybe most of the people were standing, there wasn't nearly as much cheering or screaming to be heard. Seemed to be a much quieter crowd, and not nearly as into the type of racing that occurred as many of the posters here seem to be.

The other folks I was with shared the same observation, so it wasn't just me.

So while a lot of folks here don't like pack racing, I'm not so sure that applies to the paying attendees. Not that that was a scientific poll, but it was certainly noticeable by the difference...

[Bjorn Again]

the "Kentucky style" racing killed people and was artificial.

[SpeedwayRyan]

So while a lot of folks here don't like pack racing, I'm not so sure that applies to the paying attendees. Not that that was a scientific poll, but it was certainly noticeable by the difference...

One race had a battle for the lead in the last two laps, decided right at the finish line by a small margin. One of the guys also happened to be a midwestern USAC vet driving for a team owned by a female former driver and USAC vet that was voted most popular driver for multiple years. The other race had a guy in control of the race brush the wall and give up the race to another guy, who then absolutely had it in the bag for the last couple of laps. Still a great finish, but the last lap wasn't a nailbiter at Texas.

Now maybe the Kentucky side-by-side finish would be harder to come by with the current formula, but not every race in the last handful of years had a finish like Kentucky 2011 either. I don't think you can really just compare the two and hope to gain any real insight.

[gonzo]

It's clear a lot of folks on here found the style of racing Sat night at TMS to be what they prefer. Having attended the 2011 KY race (and nearly all of them there) and this past Sat night's race at Texas, I thought they were both very good races, if not great. Very different types of races, but still darned good, IMO.

However, something really stood out to me as a very noticeable difference. At KY, the crowd was not only on their feet for the last 10-20 laps, but screaming and cheering loudly, especially during the last 2 laps. At TMS, while a lot, maybe most of the people were standing, there wasn't nearly as much cheering or screaming to be heard. Seemed to be a much quieter crowd, and not nearly as into the type of racing that occurred as many of the posters here seem to be.

The other folks I was with shared the same observation, so it wasn't just me.

So while a lot of folks here don't like pack racing, I'm not so sure that applies to the paying attendees. Not that that was a scientific poll, but it was certainly noticeable by the difference...

It's an artificial high so to speak but it isn't self sustaining.

One was real racing with a less dramatic finish, the other was contrived racing with wheel to wheel action to the checkered flag.

It's bound to capture excitement. But its a flash in the pan sort of excitement.

The only part of one type of racing that matters was the final lap. The part that matters in the other type of racing is the entire event.

You be the judge of which is which.

[andy5446]

In my opinion, the race at Texas was interesting, the whole race long. previously, most ovals produce meaningless posturing for 180 laps

[Bjorn Again]

In my opinion, the race at Texas was interesting, the whole race long. previously, most ovals produce meaningless posturing for 180 laps

sums it up for me too

[Grizzlor]

KY had Ed Carpenter trying to win for little Sarah's team. Had that been Briscoe vs. Dario, same reaction? Two cars side by side for 20 laps, with neither gaining an advantage is not racing, it's a sham and belongs in a circus. Honestly, if it means holding those white knuckle races to satisfy the irresponsible appetites for carnage by NASCAR fans, I'd rather see the series end.

In my opinion, the race at Texas was interesting, the whole race long. previously, most ovals produce meaningless posturing for 180 laps

Oh, you mean like a NASCAR race? Tune in for the last 10 minutes.

[vancecooley]

I actually disagree with the dramatic finish. I thought TX was extremely dramatic (much like 2011 Indy). It actually caused me to come off the couch. The Side by side for 20 laps had gotten stale for me by that KY race. It was like, "oh here we go, no one can clear the car in front of them"
Just my opinion.

It's an artificial high so to speak but it isn't self sustaining.

One was real racing with a less dramatic finish, the other was contrived racing with wheel to wheel action to the checkered flag.

It's bound to capture excitement. But its a flash in the pan sort of excitement.

The only part of one type of racing that matters was the final lap. The part that matters in the other type of racing is the entire event.

You be the judge of which is which.

[millrace]

the "Kentucky style" racing killed people and was artificial.

BS.

[millrace]

In my opinion, the race at Texas was interesting, the whole race long. previously, most ovals produce meaningless posturing for 180 laps

I hate to say it, but what you saw at Indy this year was meaningless posturing for the first 180 laps. No one wanted the lead, everyone made sure they were making fuel, and there were way too many cars on the lead lap at the end of the race (which, of course, was exciting at the end). But to distinguish that from a classic IRL race where passing was by feet instead of slingshot, to me, is a bit like splitting hairs.

[rappel]

I was there and surprised at the lack of shock/reaction of Justin Wilson's pass and win. I was pleased and shocked. Always amazing to see Dale Coyne win. Refreshing to see someone else besides Penske and Ganassi win.

[Oben]

BS.

+1

Total BS.

[Joeremi]

This was the first race on a 1.5 since Vegas. I loved it, but even though the cars weren't side-by-side, I was still nervous until it was over. The cars were very unstable, Dixon's wreck was pretty bad, and the one Kanaan miraculously didn't have could have been worse. I'm not at all surprised that the crowd was a little subdued compared to the last "lunacy" race we got away with before everything changed.

[OrdinaryRaceFan]

I hate to say it, but what you saw at Indy this year was meaningless posturing for the first 180 laps. No one wanted the lead, everyone made sure they were making fuel, and there were way too many cars on the lead lap at the end of the race (which, of course, was exciting at the end). But to distinguish that from a classic IRL race where passing was by feet instead of slingshot, to me, is a bit like splitting hairs.

Wasn't this the case for the Texas race too, to a smaller extend?

My point is, with the current cautions rule it's very easy to stay on the lead lap. Get a lap down, just wait for a caution and hope everyone pits.

The reason why there was so few cars on the lead lap was: a) attrition, b) mechanical issues, c) some people getting their set so wrong that they lost several laps(Dario). But all of that will be cured with time, as this is a new car and a brand new aero package.

I feel bad for someone like Carpenter, who was in contention for most of the race, but finished a lap down, because he pitted under green and got trapped at the wrong moment(last caution). While someone like Pagenaud was a lap down for most of the race, but got his lap back with cautions around the end, and eventually finished in the lead lap. (not taking a shot at Simon, he did a fine job as an oval rookie).

And with the current formula, track position isn't that important. If you're the fastest on track, you'll be able to make your way through. Even though passing definitely requires balls and talent(which is a good thing). We've seen people like TK or Power getting problems at their stops, and still getting back to the front pretty quickly.


In a nutshell, the racing was pretty good overall. I hope we can have more 1.5 and superspeedways in the future. But it would be good if they could find a solution to make the first 75% of the race more relevant.

It feels like if you have a bad car for 75% of the race, be off the pace, but still fast enough to manage to stay on the lead lap(not THAT hard with cautions), and then, manage to get the balance right for the last stint, and be one of the fastest cars on track, you can still win this thing. It makes the last stint so much more important comparing to the X first ones.


tldr. I'm just nitpicking here. This was a great race. Love to see the drivers having to work in the cars again. More ovals please

[mdkiel]

...and on and on it goes...

[Buckeye Bullitt 93]

...and on and on it goes...

when the trolling stops, nobody knows...

[Maelochs]

"It feels like if you have a bad car for 75% of the race, be off the pace, but still fast enough to manage to stay on the lead lap(not THAT hard with cautions), and then, manage to get the balance right for the last stint, and be one of the fastest cars on track, you can still win this thing."

The alternative would be that everyone who didn’t absolutely nail the setup, who had the slightest bobble in the pits, or even who got nailed in the pits by another car (Dario at Indy) would be done for the day, and sheer luck would play an even bigger part in determining which of the three cars on the lead lap at the end would win.

I like watching engineers struggle to keep the car set up for changing track conditions, watching drivers struggle to adapt to cars that aren’t quite right, and I like the fact that if one team finally nails the setup late in the race they have a chance to win it.

Passing on ovals is always easier than passing on road courses, where defending is easier; this makes all early passes on ovals less meaningful. It gives drivers the ability to hang back until the last 20 laps and then go all-out for the win. On road courses that doesn’t work—different dynamic, different way to judge races.

On ovals, the early laps are relevant in that they show who has a good car, who has a crew which can think on the fly and make good adjustments, who has a qick pit crew, and who can avoid getting caught in an accident. The early laps also show which teams can come back from adversity.

Would you really prefer it if every team which cut a tire on some other drivers’ wreckage debris was basically done for the day and would never see the lead lap again? (Not saying that is good or bad, just asking.)

[Z28]

I liked watching both races. I hate hearing people who claim to be race fans complain because it never matches their idealistic VISION of what it should have been.

[heliogordy]

I was at KY the last 4 years...LOVE the track and hope to god someday it returns to the schedule. The added excitement was, as has been stated above, seeing Carpenter go for his first win against the series best while driving for class act Sarah Fisher...the David vs. Goliath factor played a big role. While the guys and gals challenging each other in a pack lap after lap was exciting, in the back of my head, I was always wondering when luck would run out.

The pack racing was exciting, but artificially so, IMHO. Not a lot of engineering or driver skill. Texas was a challenge for everyone...drivers had to control the car a different way in traffic, draft, choose a line that actually worked for them, take care of the tires...the engineers had to make the car able to do all of those things without simply setting them up to be glued to the track...Dixie had it all figured out...Dario (and crew) were hopelessly lost. And REAL DRIVERS were rewarded by actually showing off their driving skills. The guys who kept their cars under them and passed a ton of cars on the track were REAL drivers. Heck, several who were NOT on the lead lap were REAL drivers who found their set up or luck gremlins rise up and bite them.

I'd love to see them back at Kentucky with the Texas formula some day.

[WillMazeo]

Two cars side by side for 20 laps, with neither gaining an advantage is not racing, it's a sham and belongs in a circus. Honestly, if it means holding those white knuckle races to satisfy the irresponsible appetites for carnage by NASCAR fans, I'd rather see the series end.

[Penske6]

I understand the discussion here, but you cannot cherry pick just any two races. While most races from 2006-2011 were "pack races", let's wait for a bigger sample of what we saw at Texas before jumping to conclusions.

[drewdawg727]

What people were quiet at Texas? The stands looked like a someone had broken a gigantic cookie and there were "crumbs" in the stands.
The crowd at Texas on Sat night, from TV at least, looked like the worst I had ever seen it.

[WillMazeo]

What people were quiet at Texas? The stands looked like a someone had broken a gigantic cookie and there were "crumbs" in the stands.
The crowd at Texas on Sat night, from TV at least, looked like the worst I had ever seen it.

69,000 is the worst? Not bad.

[rappel]

What people were quiet at Texas? The stands looked like a someone had broken a gigantic cookie and there were "crumbs" in the stands.
The crowd at Texas on Sat night, from TV at least, looked like the worst I had ever seen it.

I was there and the crowd seemed normal to me. I'd say 70K or so. There was a nice crowd there. Maybe NBC didn't do it justice.

[mdkiel]

I liked watching both races. I hate hearing people who claim to be race fans complain because it never matches their idealistic VISION of what it should have been.

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at. TF has a few pet circular arguments that get hashed overandoverandover till they come out your frickin' ears. Yeah, alot of people don't like the foot to the floor, side-by-side momentum racing that marked 1.5's on the IndyCar circuit. I get it. I got it 5 years ago, 10 yrs ago.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[ttturner68]

the "Kentucky style" racing killed people and was artificial.

I am tired of saying this.... Kentucky NEVER had Texas pack racing NEVER.

I attend every race except one and there never was a pack of more the 3-5. The track banking is different and quite frankly to bumpy to have the packs like Texas and Vegas had.

Sometimes is was hard to pass on the highside and lead to side by side racing but never in a pack.

[Mario4ever]

It's clear a lot of folks on here found the style of racing Sat night at TMS to be what they prefer. Having attended the 2011 KY race (and nearly all of them there) and this past Sat night's race at Texas, I thought they were both very good races, if not great. Very different types of races, but still darned good, IMO.

However, something really stood out to me as a very noticeable difference. At KY, the crowd was not only on their feet for the last 10-20 laps, but screaming and cheering loudly, especially during the last 2 laps. At TMS, while a lot, maybe most of the people were standing, there wasn't nearly as much cheering or screaming to be heard. Seemed to be a much quieter crowd, and not nearly as into the type of racing that occurred as many of the posters here seem to be.

The other folks I was with shared the same observation, so it wasn't just me.

So while a lot of folks here don't like pack racing, I'm not so sure that applies to the paying attendees. Not that that was a scientific poll, but it was certainly noticeable by the difference...

There is a lot of screaming at Justin Bieber concerts (or so I assume) but mere applause at the symphony. Does that mean that the audience at the symphony was not "into it?" I don't think so. I'd say they have a more refined appreciation for the subtleties of the music. For my money, the race at Texas appealed to those race fans who appreciate the nuances that play out during an entire race; strategy, tire management, downforce levels, etc with the goal of being at the front at the end. The KY race was more pedal to the metal sensory overload. I much preferred the Texas race.

[heliogordy]

There is a lot of screaming at Justin Bieber concerts (or so I assume)....

Time for you to fess up and face this, M4E.

[Grizzlor]

What people were quiet at Texas? The stands looked like a someone had broken a gigantic cookie and there were "crumbs" in the stands.
The crowd at Texas on Sat night, from TV at least, looked like the worst I had ever seen it.

Looked better than last year I thought. Especially since a good chunk left last year in the intermission.

69,000 is the worst? Not bad.

I thought the reported total last year was only 58K?

[Mario4ever]

Time for you to fess up and face this, M4E.

Oh, man...that will be tough!!!