few questions about split

[Alesi md]

Hi, there is one thing that I cannot really understand. At a very beggining of the IRL in spring of 1996. Both IRL and CART were using the same machinery, although IRL used form years before -usually 1995, but also 1994.

1) Was it mandated, or teams simply could not afford new equipment from 1996?

2) Since it was basically the same equipment and schedule didnt clash much, why didnt other cart teams (apart from Della Penna) comit to both championships -so that they can be eligible for 25 instead of 8?

[Doctorindy]

IRL approved chassis from 92-95. They did not approve chassis from 96. It was some sort of cost savings measure. The 'big' teams that decided to join already had them, and the newer teams would be able to acquire them fairly easy. Note that CART teams sold a bunch of 94s and 95s to the IRL fellas.

I think they wanted to keep the start up costs as low as possible.

[Neshaminy]

This won't answer the why, just gives an objective look at the timeline.......and I really hope this doesn't start another of threads. But it is part of the history of Indy Car racing, though I wouldn't call it nostalgic.

http://motorcaster.com/cart-irl-split-timeline


PS....it actually covers BOTH splits

[Alesi md]

IRL approved chassis from 92-95. They did not approve chassis from 96. It was some sort of cost savings measure. The 'big' teams that decided to join already had them, and the newer teams would be able to acquire them fairly easy. Note that CART teams sold a bunch of 94s and 95s to the IRL fellas.

I think they wanted to keep the start up costs as low as possible.

Ok, but it still means nothing. I am sure Ganassi, Walker etc still has few old chassis. Although Walker did sell Fittipaldi's chassis to Buzz Calkins who won with it in WDW. But they still had Gordon's, and maybe some reserve, or some from 1994

[carl s]

Time marches on but it's always amazing how something we lived so quckly becomes an object for historical scrutiny, and so the CART/IRL split in Championship Racing History.
Usually takes a generation or so before the 'historians' can divest themselves of the emotions that distort their attempts to evaluate events.

[Don Capps]

Time marches on but it's always amazing how something we lived so quckly becomes an object for historical scrutiny, and so the CART/IRL split in Championship Racing History.
Usually takes a generation or so before the 'historians' can divest themselves of the emotions that distort their attempts to evaluate events.

Well, there are Historians and then there are historians, the latter group which usually can just about spell "history" if spotted six letters....

Actually, rarely is it the Historians who have any problems divesting themselves "of the emotions that distort their attempts to evaluate events," but rather those whose opinions differ -- for whatever reasons, from what the Historians write. Historians tend to be convenient scapegoats when the guilty parties are almost always the historians who generally tend to make a hash out of things. Unfortunately, far too much of automobile racing history is being (and has been) written by the historians and not the Historians, at the moment. This is slowly beginning to change, but it takes time.

[Bruce Spencer]

Because... oh... you meant that split... Kind of like the split of the split.

[PHJIndy]

Hi, there is one thing that I cannot really understand. At a very beggining of the IRL in spring of 1996. Both IRL and CART were using the same machinery, although IRL used form years before -usually 1995, but also 1994.

1) Was it mandated, or teams simply could not afford new equipment from 1996?

2) Since it was basically the same equipment and schedule didnt clash much, why didnt other cart teams (apart from Della Penna) comit to both championships -so that they can be eligible for 25 instead of 8?

It's called a boycott!

[BSJracing]

Ok, but it still means nothing. I am sure Ganassi, Walker etc still has few old chassis. Although Walker did sell Fittipaldi's chassis to Buzz Calkins who won with it in WDW. But they still had Gordon's, and maybe some reserve, or some from 1994

Yes Walker did have extra chassis because he ran Indy with I believe Groff at the wheel, same for Galles because while he ran Eddie Lawson at the US 500, he ran Davy Jones in the Indy 500.

Both teams cars in the races were painted identically IIRC

[jcolbert]

Walker also ran Robby Gordon in a year-old car at the last IRL race of the year at Las Vegas. He led quite a bit of the race as I recall before breaking or crashing, I can't remember.

One other historical tidbit, did any other team besides Galles run an Ilmor-Mercedes in the IRL that year?

[Hardscrabble]

2) Since it was basically the same equipment and schedule didnt clash much, why didnt other cart teams (apart from Della Penna) comit to both championships -so that they can be eligible for 25 instead of 8?

To be perfectly blunt, Stupid Pride...

If the braintrust at CART had actually had any brains, they would have run WDW, Phoenix and Indy with their year old cars while still running their already established schedule...

Then after Indy, they could have all said "Thanks, but we don't care for this...bye,bye"...

The rest of the 1996 schedule would not have happened at that point...

[Alesi md]

It's called a boycott!

So infact it is CART teams that boycotet INDY500, and not vice versa as some suggest, because quite frankly they could have made a mockery out of 25/8 rule if just they turned up in WDW in January 1996

I saw that race (many times infact, its one of my favourite races of all times -because of its oddity) and they would outclass IRL competitors and make themselves eligible for 25 instead of 8

If Tony George wanted to oust CART teams form 500, he would just stage WDW on the same weekend as Homestead. But he didnt do that. HE left the door open...

disclaimer: I am 100% european, my hometrack is Monza, and I always liked BOTH; IRL and CART (infact I liked them much more than F1) -so I consider myself NEUTRAL

[PHJIndy]

Yes, Tony gave CART the oppurtunity to put the IRL out of business and, for whatever reason, they didn't take that oppurtunity.
Show up at WDW and Phoenix and they are part of the 25 and not the 8.

[Belanger99]

I'm not sure how to convey this without using American slang, I have a good friend who is German and I have to explain things I say to him all the time

What started as a 'spat' turned into a full blow 'pizzing match' between both sides.

You had ego centric, self centered (and in some cases self righteous) businessmen on both sides who kept escalating the 'war', many of whom still had issues that came from the real split in 1978. I do think that publicly Tony George tried to take the high road on many occasions and there were those in the CART camp that were smart enough to keep their yaps shut and go about their business. There were others in the IRL that wanted to take down CART, and those on the CART side that tried to destroy the IRL and the Indy 500.

Unfortunately for the sport, when people on one side took aim at the other, they usually ended up whizzing in their own shoes, so to speak.

[Don Capps]

The root of the problem was, is, and will continue to be the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

[Jim Wilke]

Walker also ran Robby Gordon in a year-old car at the last IRL race of the year at Las Vegas. He led quite a bit of the race as I recall before breaking or crashing, I can't remember.

Lost a rear wheel bearing, common on Reynards back then on high speed ovals, happened at CART in Michigan too, I think.

One other historical tidbit, did any other team besides Galles run an Ilmor-Mercedes in the IRL that year

Ilmor DID NOT want their engines at Indy that year. CART had reduced boost from 45 to 40 inches, if I recall correctly, and they claimed that the new '96 engine was not designed to work with the higher boost. Galles said, 'I paid for the lease on this engine and I'll run it where I want' and slapped on the 45 inch pop off valve. Had it not been for Salazar blocking Davy Jones into the inside wall, Galles might have won the Indy 500, handing Ilmor/Mercedes a win they didn't want.

[Hardscrabble]

The root of the problem was, is, and will continue to be the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

Wow, the Indy 500 a "problem"...I know what you meant, it just sounded funny...

[Jim Wilke]

IRL approved chassis from 92-95. They did not approve chassis from 96. It was some sort of cost savings measure.

Again, working from memory, I think the main difference between the 95 and 96 chassis was that CART mandated some internal mods to protect the driver. _I think_ there were some CF ribs that were installed alongside the cockpit to protect another car's nose from penetrating. ...I think.... I believe these pieces could be added to the older cars somehow, the newer ones had them installed.

[Doctorindy]

The chassis Lazier won Indy was bought from Ganassi...it was one of Vasser's 95 cars.

Behind the scenes, CART in many ways was an enabler. IIRC, Ford-Cosworth (which supplied most of the field outside of the Menards) wasn't thrilled about being there, but did lend support. Goodyear and Firestone seemed to embrace both sides.

[flatlander_48]

To be perfectly blunt, Stupid Pride...

If the braintrust at CART had actually had any brains, they would have run WDW, Phoenix and Indy with their year old cars while still running their already established schedule...

Then after Indy, they could have all said "Thanks, but we don't care for this...bye,bye"...

The rest of the 1996 schedule would not have happened at that point...

No. I can't think of any other situation where the opinion was to patronize your enemy with the hope that it will show him up. Goes against the grain and is just silly. That said, the outcome that you suggest is/was possible but the other more probable outcome was that it would have emboldened the IRL.

And, make no mistake. 25/8 was an attempt at protectionism. Again, I can't think of any other situation where such a thing has happened.

[PHJIndy]

No. I can't think of any other situation where the opinion was to patronize your enemy with the hope that it will show him up. Goes against the grain and is just silly. That said, the outcome that you suggest is/was possible but the other more probable outcome was that it would have emboldened the IRL.

And, make no mistake. 25/8 was an attempt at protectionism. Again, I can't think of any other situation where such a thing has happened.

I guess some of you will just never be convinced.

[Sea Fury]

Yes Walker did have extra chassis because he ran Indy with I believe Groff at the wheel, same for Galles because while he ran Eddie Lawson at the US 500, he ran Davy Jones in the Indy 500.

Both teams cars in the races were painted identically IIRC

IIRC Davy could have won the race had he not been Salazar'd.

I also recall that at the very first, before the war of words really erupted, Foyt was planning on entering a car in both series, but decided to stay with the one that brung him.

[flatlander_48]

I guess some of you will just never be convinced.

Can you think of any examples regarding when I said: "I can't think of any other situation where..."? What was suggested goes against human nature.

[PHJIndy]

Can you think of any examples regarding when I said: "I can't think of any other situation where..."? What was suggested goes against human nature.

You wouldn't be satisfied with anything I would say or what I have said.
Boycott says it all, imho.

[BADGER]

Lost a rear wheel bearing, common on Reynards back then on high speed ovals, happened at CART in Michigan too, I think.
Ilmor DID NOT want their engines at Indy that year. CART had reduced boost from 45 to 40 inches, if I recall correctly, and they claimed that the new '96 engine was not designed to work with the higher boost. Galles said, 'I paid for the lease on this engine and I'll run it where I want' and slapped on the 45 inch pop off valve. Had it not been for Salazar blocking Davy Jones into the inside wall, Galles might have won the Indy 500, handing Ilmor/Mercedes a win they didn't want.

Bull. This is a myth unless you think Galles was able to force ilmor to continue to lease an engine programmed for different boost. I can't believe people still believe this.

[flatlander_48]

You wouldn't be satisfied with anything I would say or what I have said.
Boycott says it all, imho.

As I suspected. You have no examples.

[Alesi md]

No. I can't think of any other situation where the opinion was to patronize your enemy with the hope that it will show him up. Goes against the grain and is just silly. That said, the outcome that you suggest is/was possible but the other more probable outcome was that it would have emboldened the IRL.

And, make no mistake. 25/8 was an attempt at protectionism. Again, I can't think of any other situation where such a thing has happened.

why none of the cart teams showed up at WDW? they were not forbidden, were they? So what kind of protectionism 25/8 is? very weak one.

[red5champ]

In hindsight its very easy to say CART should have ran the early races in the IRL. They already had alot of races in that that period before Indy 6 I think, with 2 fly a way races. What's to say their sponsors would have wanted to pay to be at those races being non PPG Indy Car World Series races.... They simply wouldn't of had the money. Also why should they have? I always viewed the IRL in it's first years as a F3000 b spec series had no interest to watch the races. I didn't untill 2001 when Sam Hornish came over and little Al.

For me it was the fact that the CART teams sold all their '92-'95 chassis which helped them. Sure they got all that money in many respects which would have been a big help and not one you get often in motorsport. But it created the IRL. I think and everyone I think thought that the IRL wouldn't last and was just a 1 year thing.

In 1996 I did what I did the pevious 10 years and that was watch the PPG Indy Car World Series. The split to me didn't happen untill Memorial Day 1996. I was at the U.S. 500 and couldn't believe what was happening. I followed the series, the teams and drivers and was gutted the greatest race of them all Indy no longer had the Indy Cars.
You had 4 big engine suppliers. 5 Chassis suppliers. 2 tyre suppliers. CART's biggest assets were it's biggest downfall. As it's outside of the U.S. involvement and competition brought in the forgein drivers.

1997 I thought is this still happening? IRL have new cars now this isn't going to be just a one thing...and CART had to drop the Indy Car name. I noticed the TV ratings were dropping but the racing in 1997 kept me there.

1998 at Homestead for another boring Homestead race were I saw Vasha announce the name would drop to Championship Cars and that the series would be called the FedEx Championship Series I was in dismay as the series had lost all it's identity and more foreign drivers. But the series was more competitive. And it seemed now it was just a rival to Formula 1 as a F1 series. To me everthing I loved about Indy cars had gone. But the racing kept me there that year. Even though I didn't like the Hanford device.

1999 much the same but guys like Zanardi and Rahal gone, but I think CART was at it's height in series competition. But I was so happy when I heard both sides were talking and so annoyed when I heard Tony George then pulled out last minute. That was what killed CART. They needed Indy, the sponsors, teams, drivers needed it. TG knew this and wanted the series to go out. I'm sure of it. If they had of merged in 1999 it would have saved Indy Car and we wouldn't be in the state we are today. After that CART slowly fell apart. It was the start of the end.

[goes211]

As I suspected. You have no examples.

NASCAR, ASA, IMSA, and F1 decided to boycott the IRL, too.

[Turn13]

NASCAR, ASA, IMSA, and F1 decided to boycott the IRL, too.

None of those series ever participated en masse in the Indianapolis 500, though, so there was no symbiosis to maintain.

I wouldn't maintain, however, that CART should have participated in the IRL - the more mutually beneficial solution would have been to incorporate some IRL-like practices of their own in the first place. Of course, it's hard to court a fickle fan base and engage a stagnant institution like USAC represented - as the IRL itself discovered.

I blame us