I'm a soft target!Originally Posted by Doc Austin
You're too slow?
Sorry, buddy. You left yourself wide open.
I'm a soft target!You're too slow?
Sorry, buddy. You left yourself wide open.
"Try some of these before or after your statements if you are not presenting them as facts. Things like - "In my opinion", or "I think that", JHMO, IMHO, IMO, JMO... Your opinions are not (necessarily) fact. That would clear things up some." - Seadog 03/25/2010 11:40am So the above is JMO.
Yes Gonzo clearly I am the illogical one here. I'm so illogical that I've managed to find a way not to have a special section of the controversy section devoted to all of my illogical ramblings. Apparently many others here have the same problem, we're so stupid that we can't figure out how to get our stuff moved off the main board into "special land"
As for threads becoming all about you, I'm glad you noticed that they don't actually become about you until someone puts it in writing. I mean if you rob a bank you don't actually become a bank robber until someone yells the term at you right? If you donate money to charity, your gesture is not actually a good deed until somebody says so in writing right?
**** This Sport
I speak only for myself. You expressed your opinion multiple times on here before the race and after the race. You think the speeds are too slow and that is why the race wasn't "packed."
It's you who gets confrontational when someone disagrees with you. Then you proceed to ask loaded questions and go into some illogical tirade about why our opinions that oppose yours is bad. Then when you're called out for it, you spazz out.
I have no interest in posting in Gonzoville. Sorry
Wow. They sure raced the crap out of those cars today. You don't have to go 200mph to race well.
"Is that my *** that I smell burning?" ... Helmet Stogie from "Death spasms of the Mabuchi"
Yep been an awesome Le Mans! I missed Milwaukee. Who won?
Ryan Hunter-Reay. And BeccyAnd Michael Andretti, his companies, IndyCar racing and its community of fans and participants
Last edited by doitagain; 06-17-2012 at 10:01 AM.
"Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"
Brian's Wish
Gonzo, since it all about spped, are you predicting a packed house for The Michigan race today? They broke the NASCAR track record in qualifying so we should see one of the most packed houses in years.
Hitokiri pretty much nailed it in regards to the State Fair Board's shenanigans with the Mile.
Of course when you remove a race from the schedule for a year, then try to revive it with an incompetent promoter the next and get tumbleweeds it's going to take some time to build up the attendance. Doesn't matter if the cars go 175 or 275. Andretti did a much better job than last years promoter, but he can certainly improve on it (like advertise in the Chicago market).
Will it sell out? Doubtful. Indy didn't and more than likely won't next year.
Bring Marlboro back to give away scads of free tix like the old days. Problem solved, right?
Last edited by doitagain; 06-17-2012 at 11:26 AM.
To a certain extent, it would be
If there was a sponsor who saw the value in doing so, having one paper the stands would generate a lot of positive response, because once there many of the people would see what we see - an exciting spectacle, an interesting technical exercise, an extraordinary human performance. And they would become familiar with and appreciative of the personalities, the competition, the physics.
It wouldn't necessarily take giant RoI numbers to start, either, as much as it would just recognition and exploitation of the circumstances. The numbers would grow.
It's happened before.
For real? I'll put real money down that there wasn't a single person in line for tickets who asked, how fast are they going? And that same zero number left after seeing how fast, or gonzo slow, they were going. Please find anyone who said, 'oh would have been a better race if they had been going faster', besides muppet characters.
"You can't arrest those guys, they're folk heroes"
"They're criminals"
"Well most folk heroes started out as criminals"
The downside would be lots of people getting free tix every year. That affects the bottom line. (no, I don't think Marlboro paid anything close to face value for those tickets) But I can see using that type of promotion for a year or two.To a certain extent, it would be
If there was a sponsor who saw the value in doing so, having one paper the stands would generate a lot of positive response, because once there many of the people would see what we see - an exciting spectacle, an interesting technical exercise, an extraordinary human performance. And they would become familiar with and appreciative of the personalities, the competition, the physics.
It wouldn't necessarily take giant RoI numbers to start, either, as much as it would just recognition and exploitation of the circumstances. The numbers would grow.
It's happened before.
I'm sure CART has been accused of doing it before, so of course it must be bad
Zed, what is more impressive? Standing against the fence and watching Indy Lights or standing against the fence and watching IndyCar? Take somebody off the street that knows nothing about the sport, zero, zilch, nodda absolutely nothing, he was just flown in from the plains of Africa. You want to get him hooked on racing and you have one shot to do it. Stick him in the stands at the Mile and watch one of two events, Indy Lights, or IndyCar?
Answer honestly and you know sure as s*** you are gonna prop him up in front of IndyCar.
Here is what you and every other person that wants to argue about speed not mattering and trying to make this into a debate about track records doesn't get.
Had he only watched Indy Lights, he wouldn't have walked away being impressed and likely wouldn't have been saying I wish they could go faster. But you know sure as s*** if he watched IndyCar going FASTER he would have been even more impressed.
SPEED MATTERS!
Disagree? Fine disagree all you want but you are disagreeing with IndyCar drivers also.
JR Hildebrand: "We are here to go fast, and that is what IndyCar racing is all about."
I'm not Zed, so hopefully you don't mind me taking a shot at this.
I would put them in front of IndyCar.
Are you speaking for yourself here, or for "the masses?" Because it's starting to read like you're speaking about the masses as well as yourself.Here is what you and every other person that wants to argue about speed not mattering and trying to make this into a debate about track records doesn't get.
What people are arguing against is the notion that speed is not the reason the series isn't doing well in terms of ratings and attendance.
The premise of this entire thread is about the attendance of Milwaukee, and that it wasn't "packed."
Had he only seen the Indy Lights, then he would be impressed. Why? Because it's hard to miss what you don't know. If he has never seen a car go faster, then why would he walk away unimpressed? If someone isn't impressed by the speed of the Indy Lights, then I doubt they would be impressed by the Indy Car series. Again, going based on your notion that the person doesn't know about the other series.Had he only watched Indy Lights, he wouldn't have walked away being impressed and likely wouldn't have been saying I wish they could go faster. But you know sure as s*** if he watched IndyCar going FASTER he would have been even more impressed.
Fast is a relative term. How fast? Fast compared to what?SPEED MATTERS!
Disagree? Fine disagree all you want but you are disagreeing with IndyCar drivers also.
JR Hildebrand: "We are here to go fast, and that is what IndyCar racing is all about."
Someone asked you the question earlier, if speed did matter, as you insist it does, why did the attendance see a 9,000 person increase from last year (estimate attendance was 22,000 as per Robin Miller).
If speed matters, why is Nascar so much more popular?
If speed matters, why is it that despite the FIA's attempts to slow down F1, the series is still the #1 racing series in the world?
And interestingly enough, my grandfather who loved Indy, loved F1 and Nascar no longer finds the former of the two interesting. The speeds and deaths in IndyCar actually drove him away, as it did in F1. He now only watches NASCAR and road course racing, judging that IndyCar is "stupid" for their dangerous speeds and unsafe openwheel design.
You are clearly more concerned with wanting to argue than trying to understand a point of view!
Case in point, there is nothing to take a shot at! How about trying to understand instead of trying to take a shot at???
Why?
Does it matter? Are you policing for the greater good and protection of the masses?
Are you speaking for the masses or yourself. What does ambig blame for the low attendance and poor ratings?
Is it? I don't even know anymore what the hell this thread is about its been derailed, and merged, and manipulated so many goddamn times I don't know what the hell conversation I am taking part in.
Do you think he would be more impressed by IndyCar having seen IndyLights?
Fast to what you have done in the past. Fast compared to what physics will allow a car to do. Fast compared to other series. F'in FAST. It isn't that complicated a principal or statement to understand. Um, sorry pardon me there JR, fast is a relative term, can you please explain what exactly you mean. Give me a break. You know damn well what he was referring to and what he meant.
Cause Michael did a hell of a good job promoting the event!
For the bazillionth time, speed isn't as intrinsic a dynamic of NASCAR racing as it is in IndyCar. IndyCar is rooted in speed culture. NASCAR has other roots. Stick a V6 in a stocker, and run them on diesel and see how well that goes over with the NASCAR crowd. Different dynamics.
Again, different dynamics. While speed does play an important dynamic in F1 its about how you get to that ultimate speed as opposed to the end result. Fans know that although attempts are made to slow cars down that ultimately it is a battle of wits. The FIA against the engineers and technical excellence.
Among other things.
I don't know why you keep trying to make every single motor sport event all the same. Are hockey and figure skating the same? They both are played on ice and you both wear skates.
I thought you had a big concern with me speaking for the masses? How come you are now applying that logic to what your grandfather likes or dislikes. Is he speaking for the masses or just his unique self?
There's a certain self-mutilating fun in being part of The Muppet Centipede.
The fans should be the absolute last people considered on any decision that could effect a participant. Doc Austin
Lying was a no-brainer for me. Robin Miller
"I thought they booed [Danica] because she was being a complete jerk, but then they applauded for A.J. Foyt. Now I'm just confused."
Me. I always say that. Seriously
I understand your point of view as it pertains to you. If it is something that keeps you from liking the series, I respect that view. What I don't respect is your position that your viewpoint is king.
[quote]Why?[quote]Case in point, there is nothing to take a shot at! How about trying to understand instead of trying to take a shot at???
They have larger fields, greater manufacturing diversity, the drivers are better, the sponsors and teams greater and they put on a better show from a racing stand point.
Oh, and they go faster.
Do you have a problem with me accusing you of doing something that you previously accused and bashed someone for doing as well!?!Does it matter? Are you policing for the greater good and protection of the masses?
Simply reading the thread and summarizing the general consensus that I see.Are you speaking for the masses or yourself.
Poor promotional efforts. A general lack of stability in the series. Years of irrelevance. A shoddy TV package. The series continued insistence at making Indy #1 while seemingly self-promoting the other events as being lesser than Indy. Poorly valued tickets. And a general negativity among fans. That's what I "blame." But unlike you, instead of focusing and concentrating on "blaming," I just watch the damn thing. When/if IndyCar ever stops appealing to me, I turn it off.What does ambig blame for the low attendance and poor ratings?
That wasn't the original scope of your question. Assuming he was impressed with the IndyLights, yes, I think he would be further impressed by IndyCar. However, if I were to bring him to a NASCAR race, I have a feeling of doubt as to whether he would be impressed with IndyCar. Though it varies greatly from person to person.Do you think he would be more impressed by IndyCar having seen IndyLights?
I'm sorry. But that isn't what I read his statement to mean. I read it to mean that they were simply there to push the car to go as fast as "they" (the drivers) could go. Whether it be 90 MPH, 100 MPH, 200 MPH 250 MPH is irrelevant. I didn't take it to mean that he is there to go faster than they had ever gone before.Fast to what you have done in the past. Fast compared to what physics will allow a car to do. Fast compared to other series. F'in FAST. It isn't that complicated a principal or statement to understand. Um, sorry pardon me there JR, fast is a relative term, can you please explain what exactly you mean. Give me a break. You know damn well what he was referring to and what he meant.
Agreed. But the cars were still slower.Cause Michael did a hell of a good job promoting the event!
And times have changed. IndyCar still has a focus on speed, just not stupidly high speeds beyond what the human body or car is feasibly capable of safely sustaining. As much as it may pain you, drivers dying drives people away, not to, motorsports.For the bazillionth time, speed isn't as intrinsic a dynamic of NASCAR racing as it is in IndyCar. IndyCar is rooted in speed culture. NASCAR has other roots. Stick a V6 in a stocker, and run them on diesel and see how well that goes over with the NASCAR crowd. Different dynamics.
This was the case in IndyCar too up until the 90s. IndyCar and F1 had this very same dynamic going on up until the split happened. There are many times in IndyCar's history where the series decided to take action and slow the cars down. And each time, the speeds climbed back up, yet attendance wasn't hurt.Again, different dynamics. While speed does play an important dynamic in F1 its about how you get to that ultimate speed as opposed to the end result. Fans know that although attempts are made to slow cars down that ultimately it is a battle of wits. The FIA against the engineers and technical excellence.
Man, that's a awful comparison of what I'm doing. I'm more or less comparing the success of the NFL to the CFL. Slightly different rules, different players, same sport. The arenas IndyCar/F1/NASCAR may be different, but they're still a test between man and machine. To say comparing their success is like comparing ice hockey and figure skating is an invalid argument.I don't know why you keep trying to make every single motor sport event all the same. Are hockey and figure skating the same? They both are played on ice and you both wear skates.
How come you're putting f***ing words in my mouth? I was simply presenting a case study in which a person I knew turned away from IndyCar for the very reason you like it. I'm not saying he is representative of anyone other than himself. In the future, if you decide to put words in my mouth, present it with a direct quote of me saying such.I thought you had a big concern with me speaking for the masses? How come you are now applying that logic to what your grandfather likes or dislikes. Is he speaking for the masses or just his unique self?
It seems to me that you're arguing off the notion that people are saying that "speed" doesn't matter. From what I can tell that other people mean from that statement is that breaking records and traveling at insanely fast speed is not important to them, but that going at a slightly slower speed provides excellent entertainment, excitement and difficulties for the drivers. Perhaps I'm wrong in reading their statement, and if I am, I would wish they correct me. As long as you keep thinking that people don't care about speed, I guess you will continue to bang your head wondering why they don't "understand" and agree with you. To me, everyone is pretty much in agreement that speed is important. The disagreement comes in at what speed is fast too fast?
Okay ambig, so we both agree speed is important. Great! Have a goodnight.
Let me see if I have this right. Gonzo says speed matters and gets five pages of personal insults for his opinion? Where are the mods? Gonzo, I applaud you for your self control in not stooping to the level of the posters that attacked you for just having an opinion. Ernest
Par for the course around here. Thanks Ernest.
Just a final note on this matter. IndyCar used to advertise themselves as the fastest series on the planet which I felt was good marketing. And while I do disagree with you Gonzo and how fast they need to go, the point about the cars being only 10mph faster than the Lights cars from a year ago certainly raised my eyebrows. Yours was a nice, thought post. Ernest
Since speed is supposedly so important, can someone please post a link to the thread that celebrates the breaking of the 200 mph race distance average speed?
Oh, wait, here it is.
There is absolutely no point to Indycars if they get slower instead of faster. I can only guess that this pervasive attitude about speed not being important is the nascarization of America. It's a RACE. The thrill comes from the speed. They are correlated. Take away speed and you insult the fans.
For anyone who doesn't think speed is important (and that seems to be about all but a few of you), why even go 215? Go 195. Heck, go 78mph. Why does it matter? You get excited about passing, then let's slow them down so we can see them better, right?
That's a lazy guess. History is full of instances where we've gone faster than we are capable of going with a reasonable degree of safety. Lately we haven't been able to keep he cars out of the fences, so it doesn't make sense to be hitting the fences at higher speed, does it?
Going faster than 225 is playing Russian Roulette with the fans and everyone knows it. Obviously, those who would like to see the sport not legislated away aren't real crazy about that kind of reckless gamble.
Sure it does.The thrill comes from the speed
So does the death, destruction and swirling debris.
So are speed and death, destruction and swirling debris.They are correlated.
Park a car in their lap and see how upset they will get.Take away speed and you insult the fans.
At a big place like Indy, that would look pretty slow. 225 seems about right, even if it was still fast enough to get Dan killed.For anyone who doesn't think speed is important (and that seems to be about all but a few of you), why even go 215? Go 195. Heck, go 78mph.
Guess some of you forgot that part.
Of course, we could let them go 250. Just be ready to clean up the mess and plug in another monkey.
If speed is so important, how come no one here noticed when we broke the 200 mph race distance barrier?
See, we go 200 mph for an entire race distance and hardly anyone remembers it (if anyone even noticed at all), but the minute we are 1 mph slower than last year the wailing and handwringing begins. Seems that even more important than speed is simply having something to complain about.
And then, when someone gets killed, the crying is unbearable. Make up your minds. If you are that detirmined to go so stupid fast, you had better be ready to accept the inevitable carnage.
Exactly. The drivers have accepted it. And they're the ones putting it all on the line. The fans need to get a grip.
I'm not sure they have. After Vegas several drivers talked about retirement, and later there was talk of a Texas boycott. I don't hear a lot of them complaining about the danger now, and I don't hear a lot of complaining about the cars being slow, so we probably have pretty good balance.
IndyCar used to advertise themselves as the fastest racing series on the planet. Gonzo is right on the money with his "speed matters". But you have to use common sense where you race and how close you are going to allow these cars to race. Ernest
We had another blistering race at Iowa last night and the Track Forum polls are showing the race is being rated at about an 8 (out of 10) average. Seems like the cars were not even running 170 mph laps in the race, so how can it be so many people enjoyed seeing such a "slow" race?
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