15 Races in 2012; Count on 18 Races in 2013

[Racing Truth]

So, let's first pencil in what we KNOW is on the schedule, not worrying about dates:

St. Pete
Long Beach
Barber
Sao Paulo
Indianapolis
Belle Isle, sadly
Milwaukee
Iowa
Toronto
Houston

Am I missing others (is M-O under contract?)?

[gavv]

Spare me... Long Beach always looks packed & did so again this year. Detroit met its live gate numbers. Iowa is always a great look & IIRC a sell out crowd. If the series is so unpopular why do you invest time watching?


TMS drew 55-60K this year... that's hardly the 2nd most popular draw for the ICS anymore. Sorry to nit-pick, but true

sorry to nitpick though, but what road/street events have a 60k raceday crowd...
St Pete? No. Barber? No Long Beach? No (in the past maybe, now no), Brazil? No. Detroit? No. Toronto? No., Mid-Ohio? No, Sonoma? No. Edmonton? No. Baltimore? No. Some of them have been 'packed' but seating capacity not near TX size. If you're arguing perception of 'crowdedness/density' when looking at a venue maybe, but even the 60% full Milwaukee is pretty much equal or more than half the streets on the list. Even brazil it was only this year that it actually looked somewhat full.

gavv

[ARROWZ46]

sorry to nitpick though, but what road/street events have a 60k raceday crowd...
St Pete? No. Barber? No Long Beach? No (in the past maybe, now no), Brazil? No. Detroit? No. Toronto? No., Mid-Ohio? No, Sonoma? No. Edmonton? No. Baltimore? No. Some of them have been 'packed' but seating capacity not near TX size. If you're arguing perception of 'crowdedness/density' when looking at a venue maybe, but even the 60% full Milwaukee is pretty much equal or more than half the streets on the list. Even brazil it was only this year that it actually looked somewhat full.

gavv

Do you have a website with official crowd totals?

Many of the street & permanent RC's have people camping (& more importantly, spending $$$) the entire race weekend. The majority of the ovals see their crowds only on race day.

Milwaukee had a helluva lot of empty patches of aluminum grandstands (that hold 45K?) Downtown Long Beach is packed for race weekends & a helluva lot of non paying folks watching from the high rises. It looks like deeper crowds than most oval crowds (excluding IMS, Iowa, or the 55-60K @TMS) Baltimore looked packed (on Labor Day...a weekend where folks escape the city for one last summer fling) & Mid Ohio easily packs in 45-50K on race day. Brazil's first race ran on a Monday after torrential rain storms during the race weekend. Sonoma is an odd layout with the drag strip jammed in the middle... personally I'd like to see the ICS at another RC.

[Scuff]

The road/ street course heavy menu is indeed proving to be popular. They will continue to be popular until the municipalities that have them figure out you really don't need a race to get people to come downtown to drink overpriced alcohol, eat county fair food, watch average musical acts, and ride ferris wheels.

[Disciple]

The single most egregiously stupid act IndyCar could possibly accomplish over the past fifteen years would be to allow the Texas race to fall off the schedule. For that reason alone it is probably in the cards.

-The Shooting of Appendages Lamenting Disciple of INDYCAR

[aaron5572]

sorry to nitpick though, but what road/street events have a 60k raceday crowd...
St Pete? No. Barber? No Long Beach? No (in the past maybe, now no), Brazil? No. Detroit? No. Toronto? No., Mid-Ohio? No, Sonoma? No. Edmonton? No. Baltimore? No. Some of them have been 'packed' but seating capacity not near TX size. If you're arguing perception of 'crowdedness/density' when looking at a venue maybe, but even the 60% full Milwaukee is pretty much equal or more than half the streets on the list. Even brazil it was only this year that it actually looked somewhat full.

gavv

Baltimore was completely packed last year

[Chris Paff]

Baltimore was completely packed last year

It sure was.. 35-45k tops were there though.. The entire course was surrounded by large office buildings.. Outside of the ALMS paddock there was almost zero open spaces inside the entire course where large amount of people could gather..

[dlm1953]

[QUOTE=Disciple;3085729]The single most egregiously stupid act IndyCar could possibly accomplish over the past fifteen years would be to allow the Texas race to fall off the schedule. For that reason alone it is probably in the cards.

Given Randall's recent performance, unfortunately you're probably correct.

[Grinder-Tank]

The single most egregiously stupid act IndyCar could possibly accomplish over the past fifteen years would be to allow the Texas race to fall off the schedule. For that reason alone it is probably in the cards.

-The Shooting of Appendages Lamenting Disciple of INDYCAR

Is there a word for beyond 'stupid'? Dropping Texas would be that. They will be there next year.

[millrace]

The road/ street course heavy menu is indeed proving to be popular. They will continue to be popular until the municipalities that have them figure out you really don't need a race to get people to come downtown to drink overpriced alcohol, eat county fair food, watch average musical acts, and ride ferris wheels.

Worth a +1.

[Swaze]

Is there a word for beyond 'stupid'? Dropping Texas would be that. They will be there next year.

You'd think but why haven't they inked a deal yet? Michael Andretti already announced that Milwaukee will be back next year and has already begun selling tickets.

I'm sure after how well this year's Texas race went, Eddie would love to be selling some tickets right now too.

Unfortunately in order for a deal to happen I think Randy is going to have to take a knee and kiss the ass of Eddie Gossage and I'm not sure he's willing to do that right now (maybe not ever). Will be a shame if a great race is lost because of two big egos.

[ARROWZ46]

It sure was.. 35-45k tops were there though.. The entire course was surrounded by large office buildings.. Outside of the ALMS paddock there was almost zero open spaces inside the entire course where large amount of people could gather..

There was only 40-45K @Iowa too... however Baltimore & Iowa BOTH give the TV viewer/casual fan the vibe that people actually give a damn about Indycar racing. The sport looks like it's providing a "Gotta Be There" atmosphere.

I would also argue that unlike oval events different fans will pass through the turn-styles or spend $$$ at urban RC races like Baltimore though out the 3 day weekend. The ovals generally get a one day race crowd... this is why the ICS launched the heat race concept. Draw more fans the day before the actual race

[PPGfan]

sorry to nitpick though, but what road/street events have a 60k raceday crowd...
St Pete? No. Barber? No Long Beach? No (in the past maybe, now no), Brazil? No. Detroit? No. Toronto? No., Mid-Ohio? No, Sonoma? No. Edmonton? No. Baltimore? No. Some of them have been 'packed' but seating capacity not near TX size. If you're arguing perception of 'crowdedness/density' when looking at a venue maybe, but even the 60% full Milwaukee is pretty much equal or more than half the streets on the list. Even brazil it was only this year that it actually looked somewhat full.

gavv

Nothing but made up BS here. You're really going to say that any of the ovals outside of Indy outdraw Barber, Long Beach, Brazil, or Baltimore? Ovals would kill for their race day attendance...Detroit had solid attendance, and Sonoma keeps getting better and better. I'll give you the argument that Toronto, Mid Ohio, St. Pete, & Edmonton do no better than the ovals as far as race day attendance goes. But as an event, it's no comparison. Throw in $ made from Friday and Saturday, VIP, pit suites, camping, etc. It's sad to see the ovals struggling, but don't be blind about it or just make up complete nonsense. And don't even tell me there were more than 30K people at Texas...

[SoundMan360]

Do you have a website with official crowd totals?

Many of the street & permanent RC's have people camping (& more importantly, spending $$$) the entire race weekend. The majority of the ovals see their crowds only on race day.

Milwaukee had a helluva lot of empty patches of aluminum grandstands (that hold 45K?) Downtown Long Beach is packed for race weekends & a helluva lot of non paying folks watching from the high rises. It looks like deeper crowds than most oval crowds (excluding IMS, Iowa, or the 55-60K @TMS) Baltimore looked packed (on Labor Day...a weekend where folks escape the city for one last summer fling) & Mid Ohio easily packs in 45-50K on race day. Brazil's first race ran on a Monday after torrential rain storms during the race weekend. Sonoma is an odd layout with the drag strip jammed in the middle... personally I'd like to see the ICS at another RC.

Street races have camping, and ovals don't?

that's seems screwy to me.

[ARROWZ46]

Street races have camping, and ovals don't?

that's seems screwy to me.

Don't debate like a 4 year old!!! Camping is obviously reserved for the permanent RC's like Mid Ohio. Feel free to pitch a tent in Baltimore or Detroit though

Oval attendance figures show that the majority of fans are showing up on race day only. As a kid I camped out @MIS for the early Michigan 500's. My Dad wanted to avoid the race day traffic & since we were "diehards" we all wanted a full day at the track as opposed to sitting on US 12 for hours.

IIRC, Fontana's endless concrete doesn't make it very camping friendly either. The only campers are drivers in their motor coaches, die hards, or people who travel with the series & have a really small travel budget.

[irloyal]

Don't debate like a 4 year old!!! Camping is obviously reserved for the permanent RC's like Mid Ohio. Feel free to pitch a tent in Baltimore or Detroit though

Oval attendance figures show that the majority of fans are showing up on race day only. As a kid I camped out @MIS for the early Michigan 500's. My Dad wanted to avoid the race day traffic & since we were "diehards" we all wanted a full day at the track as opposed to sitting on US 12 for hours.

IIRC, Fontana's endless concrete doesn't make it very camping friendly either. The only campers are drivers in their motor coaches, die hards, or people who travel with the series & have a really small travel budget.

There were at least 200 Campers/RV's at TMS over the week end. Most all ovals have camping areas for RV's and others. It's a pretty decent business on NASCAR weekends. They put up a Safeway I think at TMS on race weekend and it sells everything except booze I think. If RB would get the right activities going for IICS weekend (car shows; coordinate the dirt tracks at TMS, LVMS, Chicagoland; Concert night before/after) and make it a week-end event, there could be a better turn-out of campers for the ovals that have camping areas. BTW these campgrounds are pretty full service with dump,s water and electric etc.

[SoundMan360]

Don't debate like a 4 year old!!! Camping is obviously reserved for the permanent RC's like Mid Ohio. Feel free to pitch a tent in Baltimore or Detroit though

Oval attendance figures show that the majority of fans are showing up on race day only. As a kid I camped out @MIS for the early Michigan 500's. My Dad wanted to avoid the race day traffic & since we were "diehards" we all wanted a full day at the track as opposed to sitting on US 12 for hours.

I guess I was thrown off by your mentioning Street courses as camping sites.

btw... where are these "oval attendance figures"? Who's been counting qualifying attendees at ovals? Sure, they're weak crowds, weaker than RC/SC races even, but that's often because the RC/SC races have Saturday events beyond qualifying (like an ALMS race or GA).

[ARROWZ46]

There were at least 200 Campers/RV's at TMS over the week end. Most all ovals have camping areas for RV's and others. It's a pretty decent business on NASCAR weekends. They put up a Safeway I think at TMS on race weekend and it sells everything except booze I think. If RB would get the right activities going for IICS weekend (car shows; coordinate the dirt tracks at TMS, LVMS, Chicagoland; Concert night before/after) and make it a week-end event, there could be a better turn-out of campers for the ovals that have camping areas. BTW these campgrounds are pretty full service with dump,s water and electric etc.

I agree with you... the owners of the oval tracks should structure their weekends with plenty of on-track action to attract more people. The "Road To Indy" or other support events might not pack the grand stands but people do have the option of something on the track to watch or learn about.

where are these "oval attendance figures"? Who's been counting qualifying attendees at ovals?

The track promoters sure as hell count how many enter their facility for the entire weekend. They use it as leverage to reduce sanctioning fees & other contractual obligations. There are many ex ICS tracks & the management points out all the reasons why they no longer host certain events. The drivers & teams themselves have mentioned the added excitement when they practice & qualify in front of large crowds (as its usually extremely small crowds at some small oval tracks...)

[SoundMan360]

The track promoters sure as hell count how many enter their facility for the entire weekend. They use it as leverage to reduce sanctioning fees & other contractual obligations. There are many ex ICS tracks & the management points out all the reasons why they no longer host certain events. The drivers & teams themselves have mentioned the added excitement when they practice & qualify in front of large crowds (as its usually extremely small crowds at some small oval tracks...)

I'm sure they do count them. I'm wondering when they get around to showing those counts to you.

[Jakester]

IIRC, Fontana's endless concrete doesn't make it very camping friendly either. The only campers are drivers in their motor coaches, die hards, or people who travel with the series & have a really small travel budget.

Every major oval has significant amount of camping available. Fontana has both infield camping and exterior camping spots available. However, camping today is generally not tent camping, nor is it 'really small travel budget'. It's mostly RVs...pull behinds, 5th wheels, motor homes and coaches. Kentucky and TMS have motorhome spots overlooking the race track.

TMS may be at the forefront. as there are premier spots with full hookups as well as the HUGE camping area outside Turn 3 (and employee/vendor camping outside Turn 4) in addition to the infield camping spots. On a NASCAR weekend, TMS basically becomes a city of 20-30 thousand campers.

[ARROWZ46]

I'm sure they do count them. I'm wondering when they get around to showing those counts to you.

I clearly mentioned much of my views came from public comments from track owner, drivers & teams

However, when track management teams have had to explain why they have dropped the ICS events, many have sighted overall poor attendance. ISC is a publicly traded company...SMI might be too. Those attendance figures would be included in their annual stock holders reports. I'm sure much of this info can be found online if one is inclined to search it out.

Attending some of these races live & witnessing the ghost towns on different parts of the weekend first hand is also "showing me the counts".

On a NASCAR weekend, TMS basically becomes a city of 20-30 thousand campers. -Jakester

Fair & valid points about the RV's, caravans, or 5th wheels at any race weekend... however we are talking about the ICS...not NASCAR. The Indycar oval events are clearly not drawing 20-30K in the infield "camping" areas. Some of them don't have 30K in the stands (on race day).

[SwissMissile]

Nothing but made up BS here. You're really going to say that any of the ovals outside of Indy outdraw Barber, Long Beach, Brazil, or Baltimore? Ovals would kill for their race day attendance...Detroit had solid attendance, and Sonoma keeps getting better and better. I'll give you the argument that Toronto, Mid Ohio, St. Pete, & Edmonton do no better than the ovals as far as race day attendance goes. But as an event, it's no comparison. Throw in $ made from Friday and Saturday, VIP, pit suites, camping, etc. It's sad to see the ovals struggling, but don't be blind about it or just make up complete nonsense. And don't even tell me there were more than 30K people at Texas...

Clearly commenting on something with which you have no experience. There's a reason Mid-Ohio has been on the sched since 1980, and its not due to how "racy" the track is.

[ErixMotorsports]

[QUOTE=SEVista;3084705]Phoenix, the Michigan 500, and Road America plus the fifteen in place for 2012..[/QUOTE.

Looks like you need to get a new crystal ball,

[airborn]

Phoenix, the Michigan 500, and Road America plus the fifteen in place for 2012.

RB handled the situation very well. You may be upset that we will have one less race this year, but why throw in what is essentially your second Milwaukee for this year: a race planned and executed in less than four months?

Nope and I can't bash the guy and I applaud his effort to get the California race up to 500 miles.

Randy would hit a home run to me if he were to nail down a natural triple crown for 500-milers and keep moving the ball down the field when it comes to being in the best, most supportive markets (no matter what type of race it is).

Well, Randy just announced yesterday that neither Road America or MIS are likely to be on the schedule next year, so I think you will have some trouble getting to your 18 races and even more difficulty getting to the 19 that he has targeted. I don't think that Randy handled the replacement for China well--this should be self-evident. His reason for not going to Road America this year because he didn't want to rush it when they need to do it right for the future also rings hollow. But, it precipated you to write a post supporting him and having others sign on. Count me out.