Aero Kit decision

[Spike]

Happy to.

The $600m (which was basically a guess from the start)...

I recall other publications, such as IBJ (and individuals other than RM) talking about numbers in the range of $650 million.

So, if you're saying $600 million was a guess, what is the real number?

[smuff76]

I recall other publications, such as IBJ (and individuals other than RM) talking about numbers in the range of $650 million.

So, if you're saying $600 million was a guess, what is the real number?

I don't know the real number, do you?

I haven't seen the IBJ article, I would also like to see it.

My point is that the number you quoted was included in the RM piece and he specifically stated the IMS improvements were included in that number.

Either way it's still a significant loss contributed to the IRL, even if the number you quoted wasn't necessarily accurate.

[smuff76]

Regarding the extra costs for the aero kits, when you change the car's aero etc. you are automatically requiring the teams to spend extra money to test.

The shocks will all have to change or be rebuilt. There are a number of added costs when your changing the entire aerodynamics of the car.

Not to mention the fact that any Dallara spares are automatically obsolete.




IMO, the biggest reason the owners don't want aero kits is that none of them can afford to run poorly. If an aero kit stinks you run the chance of becoming the 2013 version of Lotus, and none of them want to risk that.

[Spike]

I don't know the real number, do you?

If you don't know the right number, how do you know what the wrong number is?

Either way it's still a significant loss contributed to the IRL, even if the number you quoted wasn't necessarily accurate.

Agreed. For all we know, the real number could be much higher.

[butcherjack]

That tweet was 2 days ago. That sounds more like the decision is still lingering for another month.

Just a thought - didn't RB float the idea of using the lucky dog to gauge opinion while ago? Any chance he was doing the same thing to see what reaction would be if Cavin leaked that there would definitely be no aero kits next year? Suppose it is unlikely.

[smuff76]

If you don't know the right number, how do you know what the wrong number is?

Yet you quote the $600m figure when you don't know the right number.

Perhaps it is $600m, the point however remains that the $600m figure that is repeatedly quoted from the RM article on internet forums as a loss by the IRL, was plainly stated in that very article as including improvements to IMS, not just the IRL.

I have no issues with stating that TG and/or the IRL lost insane amounts of money.

I didn't question the idea of which side had more money (or if they had enough) they could have foolishly thrown at it, even though the combined worth of Mr. Kalkhoven and Mr. Forsythe would have more than covered the $600m.

You are usually a stickler for accuracy and I simply expected you to be a touch more accurate.

[piercey]

I thought it was a DP at first. Still not exactly sure what series it goes in since I'm not too familiar with the sportscar ladder but I think it looks cool.

It's a cost-capped prototype class called CN. Starting to become popular in Europe. It's kind of considered the step below Formula LeMans/LMPC. The two more recognizable series at the moment is Speed Euro Series and VdeV.

http://www.speedeuroseries.com/galleries/imola-2012/

Big thing about this Oreca: I can't think of another closed-cockpit CN car at the moment.

[ptclaus98]

It's a cost-capped prototype class called CN. Starting to become popular in Europe. It's kind of considered the step below Formula LeMans/LMPC. The two more recognizable series at the moment is Speed Euro Series and VdeV.

http://www.speedeuroseries.com/galleries/imola-2012/

Big thing about this Oreca: I can't think of another closed-cockpit CN car at the moment.

Norma just unveiled theirs yesterday.

[Gomer Simpson]

Regarding the extra costs for the aero kits, when you change the car's aero etc. you are automatically requiring the teams to spend extra money to test.

The shocks will all have to change or be rebuilt. There are a number of added costs when your changing the entire aerodynamics of the car.

INDYCAR can restrict the amount of testing, can they not? It's not like they would need anywhere near the amount of testing they had this past off season. If some of them do a better job than others in a limited amount of testing, all the better for the fans.

Not to mention the fact that any Dallara spares are automatically obsolete.

That's why I say let the teams mix and match parts. If they want to use Dallara wing planes with Chevy sidepods, so be it. Once they run out of the Dallara parts then it is no longer an issue.

IMO, the biggest reason the owners don't want aero kits is that none of them can afford to run poorly. If an aero kit stinks you run the chance of becoming the 2013 version of Lotus, and none of them want to risk that.

I think you're onto something, there. I think it's that in combination with using this as a power play to put a wedge between Randy and the fans.

Remember awhile back when Randy said that one of the team owners told him, "You need to stop listening to the fans"?..

[Spike]

That's why I say let the teams mix and match parts. If they want to use Dallara wing planes with Chevy sidepods, so be it.

The main planes of the front and rear wings are fixed, spec items. As such, they cannot be changed.

[Gomer Simpson]

The main planes of the front and rear wings are fixed, spec items. As such, they cannot be changed.

Okay, then let them use the entire Dallara wing with Chevy/Honda sidepods. They'll eventually crash them all away.

[neti1]

If you don't know the right number, how do you know what the wrong number is?

Agreed. For all we know, the real number could be much higher.

Agreed. It's interesting that the $600 million figure comes from professional journalists writing in reputable publications, while criticism of the figure comes from some guys on a forum. Not hard to decide which of those 2 types of source is more credible ...

[Turn13]

Agreed. It's interesting that the $600 million figure comes from professional journalists writing in reputable publications, while criticism of the figure comes from some guys on a forum. Not hard to decide which of those 2 types of source is more credible ...

But a guess is still a guess. I doubt Robin guessed too low

When those journalists mentioned that figure, do you remember how much of that included what was spent on the F1 course, the F1 pits, the Media Center, and the Pagoda?

Oops, I see smuff76 already made the same point

$300 million is still a big number, though, and should be instructive to those who suggest spending more for this or that is all we need Doesn't go as far as you'd think . I wonder what the Split cost Roger and Chip?

[Gomer Simpson]

You mean Marlboro and Target?

[smuff76]

Agreed. It's interesting that the $600 million figure comes from professional journalists writing in reputable publications, while criticism of the figure comes from some guys on a forum. Not hard to decide which of those 2 types of source is more credible ...

Nice to see you Neti.

If you'll notice, I'm not criticizing the number, I'm criticizing leaving out what the guy who guessed at the number actually included in that total.

I would venture to guess that Champ Car lost well over 100m, probably well over 150m, in their 5-6 year run. Whatever that number is, what Robin Miller did was lump that number in with the purchase price of Cosworth and Pi and print it. Using round numbers lets say they were $50m a piece....... so all of a sudden CC's "losses" are $250m? I don't consider that a very accurate description of what CC "lost."

Cosworth and Pi are both quite profitable I believe...... so is IMS. Neither should be included in any of those numbers associated with the others.

[doitagain]

Really need some answers here, gents:

They were always going to go with Dallara - the committee was a sham period.

Source?

H/G are lucky this is not a public company. Some of them may be in jail.

For what?

Since it wasn't a real committee, it can't fail. It was theater.

How so?

[ptclaus98]

Really need some answers here, gents:




Source?



For what?



How so?

I don't think Dallara was always going to be it, but I think IndyCar and the ICONIC panel fell hook line and sinker for their promises, and the Dallara factory sealed the deal.

[bduddy]

Just a thought - didn't RB float the idea of using the lucky dog to gauge opinion while ago? Any chance he was doing the same thing to see what reaction would be if Cavin leaked that there would definitely be no aero kits next year? Suppose it is unlikely.

If I recall correctly, that was posted on indycar.com with an accompanying poll (that gathered less than 10% support). If he's trying to get that kind of response again, wouldn't he do more than a leak to Cavin?

[lizardfolk]

Disappointing in one respect, but in another, aero changes can be made on the fly like before Texas and Iowa to keep the cars racey. If you had different body kits each rules change would effect different body kits differently and you're get right back to enormous disparity, not to mention griping, carping and something else for the owners to be unhappy about.
.

Hasn't stopped F1 from being amazing this year... Nor has it stopped WEC from being amazing... Ever. Idk maybe Indycar fans/owners complain too much? But diversity and technical differences won't automatically equal a one horse race... Just saying...

[Gomer Simpson]

If I recall correctly, that was posted on indycar.com with an accompanying poll (that gathered less than 10% support). If he's trying to get that kind of response again, wouldn't he do more than a leak to Cavin?

The Lucky Dog wasn't a trial balloon so much as he was set to announce it, Cavin leaked it and he was overwhelmed with fan outcry. I guess that would be the definition of "trial balloon", if it was intentional. I think he was sincerely caught off guard by it.