IndyCar making less in US TV revenue than Tour de France

[houstonracefan]

http://www.mediapost.com/publication...s-85-sold.html

TDF is getting 30 million per year. Sad for Indy Car that it gets maybe 1/3 of this

[Rossfeld]

How many broadcast hours though?

[Fro]

How many broadcast hours though?

There's probably 3-4x the number of broadcast hours at least.

[Disciple]

Would someone please lay out the financial package IndyCar has with NBC Sports for me?

-The Thanks In Advance Disciple of INDYCAR

[doitagain]

Unpossible. Americans won't watch foreign road races.

[Ajax]

Would someone please lay out the financial package IndyCar has with NBC Sports for me?

-The Thanks In Advance Disciple of INDYCAR

Why?

[don7031]

Unpossible. Americans won't watch foreign road races.

But we will watch low tech racing where the driver/rider is paramount.

[mdkiel]

...and yet my life goes on virtually unfettered.

[ForsytheIndeck]

I have no doubt that TdF rates higher than IndyCar, but what i'd really like to do is what ratings does Tour de France pull in on NBCSN vs. NBC?

We're pulling 0.8s and 0.9s on ABC vs. 0.2s and 0.3s on NBCSN- Is the drop off proportional for Tour de France?

[Disciple]

Why?

To weed out the 'maybes' and 'probablys.' If we are going to have a comprehensive discussion we need the numbers. Speculation is usually fed by ignorance.

-The Precise Accounting Disciple of INDYCAR

[doitagain]

But we will watch low tech racing where the driver/rider is paramount.

Touche

[Rex Cannon]

Would someone please lay out the financial package IndyCar has with NBC Sports for me?

-The Thanks In Advance Disciple of INDYCAR

I heard it was north of $20 million.

[Rossfeld]

Please be per year...

[Indy-hp]

Would someone please lay out the financial package IndyCar has with NBC Sports for me?

-The Thanks In Advance Disciple of INDYCAR

The ABC agreement is no small deal. Sources close to the open-wheel series told me the deal that expires at the end of 2012 is worth $4 million to $5 million annually.

Sources within the series are saying the new ABC deal, which runs from 2013-18, is worth more than the current deal. That’s a nice windfall for a sports property that has struggled with its viewership numbers. (Versus currently pays $3 million to $5 million annually, a well-placed source said, and its deal also expires after 2018.)

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2011/08...AMS/post/28853

[Doctorindy]

Here's some older news....how the Tour de France has done on Versus (aka NBCSN).

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2010...e-down-double/

Versus averaged 456,000 viewers for the 2010 Tour de France, down 14% from last year (530,000), but up 70% from 2008 (268,000). This year’s Tour de France also topped 2007 (343,000) and 2006 (310,000). The network’s top audience was 724,000 viewers for Stage 8 on July 11, down slightly from last year’s peak audience of 792,000.

Since 2011...they put eight hours +/- on the "big" NBC network.

[houstonracefan]

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2012...rance-indycar/

The TDF had a 1.0 on Sunday morning, slightly higher than Toronto

[lkchris]

I have no doubt that TdF rates higher than IndyCar, but what i'd really like to do is what ratings does Tour de France pull in on NBCSN vs. NBC?

The amount of money the network gets is a bit proportional to ratings wouldn't you think?

[jabba19]

To weed out the 'maybes' and 'probablys.' If we are going to have a comprehensive discussion we need the numbers. Speculation is usually fed by ignorance.

-The Precise Accounting Disciple of INDYCAR

Translation: he knows that nobody will come up with the financial package since IMS is a private business. Another effort to deflect reality

[Disciple]

How can reality even be defined if no one will come up with the financial package? Are we supposed to believe that 'sources close to the situation' know something we don't?

-The Mystery Wrapped In An Enigma Disciple of INDYCAR

[Jakester]

Translation: he knows that nobody will come up with the financial package since IMS is a private business. Another effort to deflect reality

Well, the whole thread started out with an article that stated:

Sources says NBC paid around $30 million a year to Amaury Sport Organization, the race’s owner, for each of the next ten years of the deal. The new pact runs from 2014 to 2023.
As part of the agreement, NBC Sports Group will continue coverage of Amaury's cycling cycling events -- Paris-Nice, Criterium du Dauphine and Paris-Roubaix -- as well as the Paris Marathon.

The IBJ article with IICS ABC contract prices also quotes "sources". Which "sources" are more well informed????

Note NBC did get 4 other cycling events in the package...not that it makes much difference.

[SoundMan360]

How can reality even be defined if no one will come up with the financial package? Are we supposed to believe that 'sources close to the situation' know something we don't?

-The Mystery Wrapped In An Enigma Disciple of INDYCAR

Sure. Why not. Why wouldn't somebody close to the situation know more than you or I would?

I think we all heard the maximum amount the contracts were for, and assumed that was money in the bank. According to subsequent RB statements, the OLN/Versus/NBCSN deal is really paying a lot less than the headline grabbing figures from when the deal was announced.

Which means unless NBCSN rockets forward after the Olympics, the OLN/Versus/NBCSN deal will remain a massively shortsighted mistake.

[Disciple]

But no one except 'unnamed sources' know that. Although Anthony Schoettle works for a reputable press entity I am leery of his 'sources' given his proclivity to blog using the same consistent pessimism as the IndyCar obsessed squatters who are omnipresent here.

-The Comment Sections Are a Hoot However Disciple of INDYCAR

[ForzaFerrari]

But we will watch low tech racing where the driver/rider is paramount.

Low Tech?

I assure you each and every one of those riders is at the forefront of medical science!

[Captain Spyro]

How is it sad? I thought it was a given that the Tour de France was more popular than IndyCar.

[VirtualBalboa]

But no one except 'unnamed sources' know that. Although Anthony Schoettle works for a reputable press entity I am leery of his 'sources' given his proclivity to blog using the same consistent pessimism as the IndyCar obsessed squatters who are omnipresent here.

So you are unwilling to take it as any evidence of what the contract actually may pay because you don't like his opinions. Fair enough. Tell us, media maven; Can you name some television entities with both similar demographic charts and overall/per event viewership numbers as Indycar which make, say, half of that TDF $30 million a year number? The floor is yours.

[Disciple]

So you are unwilling to take it as any evidence of what the contract actually may pay because you don't like his opinions. Fair enough.

Wrong assumption. I am unwilling to take about anything Anthony Schoettle writes as 'evidence' because the majority of the pieces he writes is just opinion and innuendo. Not news. There is very little difference between what he writes and much of the goofy conspiracy theory nonsense that gets spouted by disenfranchised supposedly former fans who remain obsessed with IndyCar anyway and anything and everything even remotely related to it. Some of the most amazing tin foil hat hatred does not even center around the management of the series but around Dallara and the supposedly corrupt politics of Speedway, Indiana. If there was ANY fire near that smoke (which seems mostly to emanate from betwixt their southern-most cheeks anyway) do you not believe any REAL journalist who actually did not care about suckling the Hulman-George teat gratis and with full access three times a year MIGHT just conduct even minimal independent investigation? There are supposedly folks out there who know 'the real story.' Why won't any of the local yokels with column inches tackle that challenge? Would it not be scandalous or titillating like any other story these days that a short attention span, lowest common denominator audience would pay attention to? The dirtier the better.

With regard to the current IndyCar contract, we know (using some of these same 'experts') that IndyCar is being paid millions every year to have their product on television. That is highly preferable to buying time and absorbing all the production costs yourself. After all, we have seen that model fail in this sport.

Tell us, media maven;

You don't happen to be related to Penelope Pitstop, do you? The reason I'm asking is due to the similarly sarcastic labeling.

Can you name some television entities with both similar demographic charts and overall/per event viewership numbers as Indycar which make, say, half of that TDF $30 million a year number? The floor is yours.

Sure, although your question is kind of vague. Television sports entities (and in most cases the teams/leagues/personalities that are featured by them) that have programming numbers similar to (and in most cases worse than) IndyCar races include:

-Some smaller ESPN networks
-GOL TV
-CBS Sports Net
-Outdoor Channel
-Tennis Channel
-NHL Network
-NFL Network
-NBA TV
-MLB Network
-Any regional sports network (Fox regionals, Altitude, Big Ten, etc.)

...and all of them have higher ad sales revenue numbers (not even considering carriage revenue) than half of $30 mil. Most are higher than $30 mil, and almost none of their programming gets 'good' (using the subjective, moving target forum definition) ratings. Even most of the programming on a channel like Speed TV doesn't move needles (any wonder they are pondering a format switch?). Heck, many of those channels don't even have enough households to be Nielsen rated but they pull in the cash.

What I do believe is that the events we have on ABC is a necessary evil even though ESPN as an entity remains completely clueless from the very top of their organization to the very bottom about IndyCar and devotes 100% of their effort in our sport to NASCAR. I also believe IndyCar's linkage with the re-branded NBC Sports Channel is positive, despite the editorial politics (and almost equal cluelessness about IndyCar) in that organization being more screwed up than at ESPN. Frankly, IndyCar has not sold itself well enough to that constituency, mostly as the result of the 'aw shucks' way IMS does business. That, I imagine, is the thing that drives Randy Bernard nuts the most. But I digress.

These subjective, mostly whacko, comparisons folks dream up then trot out never actually mean anything other than troll bait. IMHO.

-The Broader View Disciple of INDYCAR

[Scuff]

http://www.mediapost.com/publication...s-85-sold.html

TDF is getting 30 million per year. Sad for Indy Car that it gets maybe 1/3 of this

Great...............who knew all Indycar needed was pedals, not turbos? Are you paying attention Randy ? Give the drivers a yellow shirt once in awhile, and save all that cash.

[VirtualBalboa]

If there was ANY fire near that smoke (which seems mostly to emanate from betwixt their southern-most cheeks anyway) do you not believe any REAL journalist who actually did not care about suckling the Hulman-George teat gratis and with full access three times a year MIGHT just conduct even minimal independent investigation?

I can't fathom a day in which someone does such investigation who you don't feel has a serious grudge or bias afterwards, particularly if they find anything negative.

Sure, although your question is kind of vague. Television sports entities (and in most cases the teams/leagues/personalities that are featured by them) that have programming numbers similar to (and in most cases worse than) IndyCar races include:

-Some smaller ESPN networks
-GOL TV
-CBS Sports Net
-Outdoor Channel
-Tennis Channel
-NHL Network
-NFL Network
-NBA TV
-MLB Network
-Any regional sports network (Fox regionals, Altitude, Big Ten, etc.)

...and all of them have higher ad sales revenue numbers (not even considering carriage revenue) than half of $30 mil.

With the exception of a couple of those networks, most of them have feature, high viewership programming that is the key draw to the network and how it ends up on a distribution system in a prime spot (DSS, cable, etc). The ones that don't, like GOL and Outdoor? They're guaranteed life over in lower viewership digital tiers. For NBC Sports Network, Indycar racing simply isn't the high viewership draw demanding the network's inclusion on cable systems. Its more like the volleyball televised by regional sports networks; it fills time and it generates ratings barely better than a test pattern. Why believe then that it is making money hand over fist? It seems exceedingly unlikely given their place.

Your argument is that it is foolish to assume that $3-5 million is the actual price being paid by NBC because you argue that the source is not trustworthy. That is something many here would argue is based in your own personal biases towards the Speedway and not grounded in reality. It would be wonderful then to see something that makes it seem unlikely that Indycar would be getting paid something other than what is rumored they do for the rights to their programming. Unfortunately, that's going to be difficult to do, isn't it?

[Disciple]

I can't fathom a day in which someone does such investigation who you don't feel has a serious grudge or bias afterwards, particularly if they find anything negative.

Someone would actually have to perform such an investigation first. Right now no one seems willing or capable. Why? Many things. Lack of actual evidence. Lack of any sort of story. Besides, why would any reputable journalist launch an investigation of that magnitude based solely on the internet lunatic meandering of a handful of internet gadflies with axes to grind?

With the exception of a couple of those networks, most of them have feature, high viewership programming that is the key draw to the network and how it ends up on a distribution system in a prime spot (DSS, cable, etc). The ones that don't, like GOL and Outdoor? They're guaranteed life over in lower viewership digital tiers. For NBC Sports Network, Indycar racing simply isn't the high viewership draw demanding the network's inclusion on cable systems. Its more like the volleyball televised by regional sports networks; it fills time and it generates ratings barely better than a test pattern. Why believe then that it is making money hand over fist? It seems exceedingly unlikely given their place.

Who said hand over fist? My point is not that it is or isn't making money hand over fist. It's not. It is, however, being paid millions every year not just by NBC Sports Network, but also by ESPN. Also do not forget they also have a national radio deal, although now that Mel Karmizan runs that joint the amount paid to all sports entities have been slashed dramatically. That is what a monopoly allows. The total amount for television is not what it was in previous deals, but that is also not unusual.

Your argument is that it is foolish to assume that $3-5 million is the actual price being paid by NBC because you argue that the source is not trustworthy.

I do not understand why they underestimate to such a degree. Perhaps Anthony is conservative. Or perhaps he enjoys straw man trolls. In almost every case he relies on 'sources close to' without naming them. That is a common journalistic tool, but it is not supposed to be employed every single time you type something. Do the Georges wield so much mafia-like power that anyone is afraid to go on the record about anything or face dire consequences? LOL.

That is something many here would argue is based in your own personal biases towards the Speedway and not grounded in reality. It would be wonderful then to see something that makes it seem unlikely that Indycar would be getting paid something other than what is rumored they do for the rights to their programming. Unfortunately, that's going to be difficult to do, isn't it?

What personal biases are those, exactly? What 'reality' am I not grounded in? I give the Speedway and its people as much grief as any critic and praise them when they earn it. Are you perhaps confusing bias with a knowledge based on over 50 years of support that IMS is unquestionably the center of the sport of IndyCar?

What all fans should be happy about is that IndyCar does get paid millions every year for rights. They also earn a decent amount of ad sales revenue, and ticket sales in May alone are astounding. Now that they have taken to wh0ring out the walls and snakepit remnants for ad sales the future looks bright from a revenue standpoint. Most venues still pay a hefty mount as well.

Believe it or not I actually believe retaining your own rights and buying time makes sense for just about any entity other than IndyCar. Even facility rental in many cases. It's working for bowling, for example. Why not for IndyCar? Simple. Because no one in charge has the acumen to pull it off and no one possesses the vision to fund it for a reasonable amount of time. It is much easier for them to rely on a model that began fading decades ago.

Such a venture would need to occur on an Eccelstone-like level. You would need control of all signage, series sponsorship and merchandising. You would not poach sponsors from teams. You would need total television production capability even better than some of the pieces they already have. You would have to qualified employ talent on and off the air other than what is selected by the networks. You would have people who set schedules using something other than dartboards. Most importantly you would need management unafraid to step on toes. IMS is so risk-averse at present that I simply do not envision the kind of massive explosion of popularity demanded by the obsessed critics.

We'll see whether that ever changes, but I can't unless the track gets sold. And why would they?

-The Probably Not Before 2017 Disciple of INDYCAR

[Fro]

How is it sad? I thought it was a given that the Tour de France was more popular than IndyCar.

Isn't it:

Indy 500 >>> Tour de France > IndyCar >>> Random cycling race