Not to far more fans in the US which grossly outnumber those die-hard Indy Fans.Originally Posted by cpthornman
Not to far more fans in the US which grossly outnumber those die-hard Indy Fans.
The reality is the numbers are dropping yet you call the deal 'ahead of its time'. The only end result that can be drerived from that is the series will be broke 'ahead of its time'.
Why are you even talking about this - it's a completely stupid argument.
Like race fans are enamoured with the dimensions of IMS when they walk in?
Come on!
It's about the history - who played there or raced there and the magical games/races.
The analogy is spot on. Your opponent is just changing the dynamic to suit his effort.
Places drive emotion - IMS does that and even does so for me. In fact the first thing I would think of when I walked in for the USGP's was the Indy500. It's just always there and it drives passion, love and helps to create wonderful memories - just like Wrigley or any other stadium.
Some places are more closer to the heart then others - I think we all can respect our independent emotions to that point. But driving home that one is bigger or better then another is just silly.
Are we still talking about dimensions?
And so you have some great historical ballparks out there like Wrigley and Fenway. Others find themselves not being commercially viable and go bye-bye. The same goes for hockey/basketball arenas (did you know NYC is on MSG #4?), office buildings, train depots, amusement parks, bridges, hotels, houses, all of it. Eventually continents will shift, islands will sink beneath the waves, and the sun itself will explode. IMS is just a track, and without a properly promoted series that goes with its marquee race, that race will continue to lose relevance with future generations.Places drive emotion - IMS does that and even does so for me. In fact the first thing I would think of when I walked in for the USGP's was the Indy500. It's just always there and it drives passion, love and helps to create wonderful memories - just like Wrigley or any other stadium.
Yes - very well put.
It's ironic that its not the racing series know as CART that put a nail in IMS but the utter idiocy displayed by ChampCar and the H/G family that has made it far less relevant to current and future generations.
I doubt that IMS would ever go under but it's true that people are just not captured by the significance of the place as they once were. My fear is that history and those great names will be replaced with marketing gimmicks that aspire to the next generations - in that those past great moments will be lost as we all grow older.
Times change and sometimes change is sad.
Not at all. Like you said it's about the history. A new place just wouldn't feel the same because none of that history actually occurred there. You're cherry picking.
First off, according to who? And two, so effing what? It doesn't make me wrong if that's what you're trying to get at.
And whose fault is that for it getting that way? Probably people that stopped caring. Some fans if you ask me.
Also I'm going to leave this here since a certain poster seems to love making this fallacious argument over and over. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Apparently being human is an overrated concept to some.
Yep it is the fans fault. Say it enough and it will come true.
.....right off of your head
Partially. Everyone is to blame for AOW loosing its relevancy.
No that is where you are wrong. Mainly one person with really bad advice from some others is to blame.
More significant are those who have never cared either way and feel no reason to.And whose fault is that for it getting that way? Probably people that stopped caring.
It isn't "overrated". Purposely refusing to accept the limitations of human constructs for the sake of purely emotional arguments is a certainly a path that leads to creating and holding wildly irrational and illogical opinions.Apparently being human is an overrated concept to some.
Yeah so I blame you that the McRib is not on the menu all year long.
If you had ate more I could have one for lunch today.
Thanks
So the banking at every track is the same? I'll have to remember that.
cpthornman, it's obvious that you don't want to look at either side of the argument. I have answered you time and time again about the historical element of sport, but you still seem to think that only the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is affected by it. Never mind the history of places like the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, Yankee Stadium, Madison Square Garden and so on. They are (or were) very historical places, but they are (or were) just places. The history lives on past the local.
I bring up Yankee Stadium because there was so much history at that ballpark and because I did take the chance to go up there before it was torn down. From my seat I could see the "Greatest Game Ever Played," I could see some of the greatest Army football games that were ever played. I could feel the excitement of Joe Lewis defeating Max Schmeling and Ali defeating Norton. I could see all of the baseball that ever was during the greatest time in the sport's history.
And yet as these actual events did not take place in the new park, their memory still lives in it. The other day I was at the Ballpark for the Rangers' 40th Anniversary Celebration and I got to see those memories come alive on the field. Players from the old and new stadium eras gathered on the field to honor the greatest Rangers team ever assembled. The new park isn't Turnpike Stadium, but the memories have moved from one oven to the other.
Things are just things. Sure they may be symbolic, but they are just inanimate objects. There will come a time where IMS will have to be dramatically changed in order to keep up with time itself. That's why we don't race on a track full of bricks or why so many things have changed from the first race. Is it going to be the end of the series? No! Not in the least bit. We will continue to innovate and grow, and the memories will still be with us. And if there comes a time where IMS has to go down (which I don't see happening, but then again Yankee Stadium was baseball's biggest icon), the memories will still be there.
Tex I am with you on this one.
In the unique situation of IMS, that certainly would not be the case. If you tore it down and built a new one "to the same dimensions" on the south side of town let's say, it would have no character. It would be Ontario. Asphalt in the shape of a rounded off rectangle means nothing unless it's at 16th and Georgetown.
You can't really compare it to the baseball/football/etc. teams...because they regularly (30 years +/-) move to new facilities. That's standard in their industry. Staying in one stadium 50+ years actually is very much the exception rather than the norm. Every team except two (Cubs and Red Sox) have periodically "moved their history" to a new stadium. Same with the NFL. The teams and fans are used to it...and often look forward to it.
In an ideal situation, the event is a strong enough draw that it wouldn't matter or perhaps would even be looked forward to were IMS to relocate to a better neighborhood in a more convenient location with better amenities. It speaks loudly to the perception of the event (and to the things I have said before) that much of the present drawing power is nostalgia factor to older generations.In the unique situation of IMS, that certainly would not be the case. If you tore it down and built a new one "to the same dimensions" on the south side of town let's say, it would have no character. It would be Ontario.
Teams have historically moved once every 3-4 generations and in many of those cases, with great antipathy from the fans. The current cycle hasn't garnered much indignation from the ticket buyers because we've seen soulless multipurpose facilities blown up and replaced with far superior facilities geared towards a single sport specific use. No one in MLB nor the localities is looking at something like Miller Park or PNC Park thinking "Boy, I guess we ought to think about what area of the city we could move our team to in 20 years." The intention is to build new Fenways that anchor cities for 6-7-8-9 generations.You can't really compare it to the baseball/football/etc. teams...because they regularly (30 years +/-) move to new facilities.
I would agree this be the case for a minority.
Lights - actual urinals and so on. Plenty of people would keep going - keep telling stories of long ago about great races and great drivers.
Even the die-hards would still come - and enjoy racing, the history etc...
Human nature allows us to adapt and move forward - well at least for the majority of us. There is no exception with the hallowed grounds of IMS.
So that makes them wrong? Be more fallacious with your argument.
My thoughts exactly.
After almost 300 posts, this thread makes one thing very clear: you either get it or you don't.
I've been at the speedway on a quiet day and heard the NOVIs.
"Is that my *** that I smell burning?" ... Helmet Stogie from "Death spasms of the Mabuchi"
Did you hear cart too? Just curious.
Wow, this seems to be getting repeated a lot latelyYep it is the fans fault. Say it enough and it will come true.Thanks
But like so many willful misinterpretations, it needs to be clarified from time to time:
Fans certainly aren't the only thing wrong with the sport, and they have reason to have been P.O.'d and turned off, but certainly their behavior as a community and as influencers on future fans has been a net negative until recently.
We're getting better
Any / every enterprise depends first and foremost on the endorsement of fans to survive. Not an opinion - a fact.
As a group, we've been pretty schizophrenic, to say the least - turbos, non-turbos, more speed, less speed, more cost, less cost, ovals vs. roads, and on and on.
As Eddie Gossage said, now is the time for those who don't want the sport to die, to pitch in together, help each other out. It's triage, folks, we need people like a patient needs oxygen.
It may not be the job of the fans to make it popular, but nobody else canIt's certainly in the best interest of anyone who doesn't want it to die.
Some think it would be better that way - to have a new beginning from scratch. Good luck with that.
The fact of the matter is, it's still the world's fastest oval racing series, it's got the historic Indy 500, and it's the one premier, very very fast and exciting racing series that may be coming to a venue near you. No cabs, no trucks.
Everything we all want for the sport, though - better cars, better drivers, freedom in specs, choice in venues, cooler stuff, more and better-looking fans... they are all dependent on having a few more fans show up and tune in first. Those few would be you, me, and the people we influence.
Drop the Flag
Now, from time to time I have also made the tongue-in-cheek observation that it's the fans that aren't there that lower TV ratings and attendance levels, which s true
Other helpful posts: http://www.trackforum.com/forums/sho...=1#post3113135
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/sho...=1#post3112435
Hopefully we can return to the topic at hand without further distractions
Last edited by doitagain; 08-15-2012 at 01:16 PM.
"Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"
Brian's Wish
It was 1973.Did you hear cart too? Just curious.
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