"The number of threads by one poster in the OT is getting a little out of hand, IMHO. "
"In the land of freedom we are held hostage by the tyranny of political correctness...If we speak..we say it the wrong way; if we do not speak we are cowards…."
Too much beef with too thin air for the prop to cut into. Just a guess
Katharine's Legge is in the gravel!--Jenks
__________________________________________________ ____________________
12-7-1941 Never, Never Forget 9-11-2001
Yup. Density altitude grabs another one. If only there were some way to calculate it.Originally Posted by Neshaminy
Cat got their tongues???
"We are all speeding toward our deaths at 60 minutes an hour." Sid Collins on Race Day, 1964
The first hint was that first glimpse at the back of the cabin.
"Ride The Barrel & Get Pitted... So Pitted."
Not being real up on flying physics, but shouldn't they have had some flaps down when they discovered that there was not enough lift due to the heat?
Aloha,,,
This video clip would make a great sequel to
the movie,,, "Sleepless in Seattle",,, only you
would call this one,,, "Clueless in Idaho"...
The Stinson 108 was great "2-Place Airplane",,,
at times,,, it was a good "3-Place Airplane",,,
but it was a lousy 4-Place Airplane, even at sea
level, let alone @ 7000 feet...
Total lapse of judgement, knowledge, and talent...
And all at the same time, he couldn't even hold
heading on the so called takeoff run... And this
poor "Douncey Fledgling", was a (?) Commerical
Pilot... Or,,, maybe this was all for the filming of
the "sequel",,, "Clueless in Idaho"...
As an old "Mig Ace" once told me,,, as we
were talking about pilots punching smoking holes
in the ground, vs flying the airplane... It's a great
aviation line, and maybe it fits here,,,
"This Pilot Made Every Mistake in the Book,,,
and,,,
"Lived" to Tell About It...
Big
Yes,,, Yes,,, Tony,,,
Your Grandfather was a friend of Roger Penske,,,
Your Grandfather did business with Roger Penske,,, but
Your Grandfather never trusted Roger Penske,,,
Note where this plane comes to rest. About 500 feet in front of it are a couple of picnic tables where my wife and I sometimes go for a quick picnic while watching airplanes:
You know that passenger side mirror where it says "object are closer than they appear".......the video guy got a great piece of footage but if he had his other eye open he'd probably have bailed in a sensible timeframe......interesting but not worth the possibilities of being sliced like lunchmeat.
thin air and no power almost got me on my 2nd solo flight in a 150.. i'd learned to fly in thick spring time air and it was just a snap, then that summer i was headed over to tyler and had to do a touch n go in wills point..
couldn't slow down enough and couldn't get it up fast enough (well for my comfort, obviously i'm still here) those trees looked really big up close and personal..
106 degrees out and no wind..
big lesson learned!!
returning to the days of ignorant bliss..
Aloha,,, Neshanminy and Jimbo,,,
I studied this crash before, it's a great video...
But you got it right Nesay,,, wow,,, the photog
was acting like an SLO,,, on a carrier deck,,, LOL
First,,, He Never Gets It Up On "Step",,,
(Like the floats may have been half full of
water... They don't look like a set of new
Wipline Floats, more like old Edo Floats)
Or he's got 50,000 pounds of Cosco Pork
Chops on-board...
Second,,, It does not sound like he's got the "Power On"...
Almost like he's forgot to set the prop in low pitch,,, you
can hear it just struggling along... Like's it's just beating
the "Lower End" out of that 985... Or he's got the heat on,
( that should not make any difference, we flew 985's with
"Half Carb Heat On" all the time... Maybe he just didn't
get the throttle on... ???? It just does not sound like it's
turning the RPM it should,,, it's hard to tell... It's got a 3
blade, so you don't hear all the tip noise...
No Soup,,, No Juice,,, No Date With Angels,,,
Third,,,, he could of just "mushed" a "smig" to the right,,,
and he's got another 20,000 feet of "runway"... ???
And then at the last minute, he just "horsed it off",,, ????
Like if he ever got it flying,,, everything would be just fine.... LOL,,,
And he's got a ton of flap out,,, I just don't get it... Why ???
It's Like the "Light's Are On,,, But Nobody's Home"...
Like he just turned into a passenger,,, and watched the
crash unfold right before him... Crazy,,, I will have to
go back and look at that NTSB report again... That was
a beautiful airplane... I think he had his wife and ???
daughters on-board... I can "almost" remember ???
This is another one,,,, for that great aviation line,,,
"He Made Every Mistake In The Book,,,
and
Lived To Tell About It,,,,
Big
It's pretty much been covered, but yeah: too hot, probably too high, and too heavy. If you're going to fill the seats in a mountainous area on a hot day, you'd better have some serious power up front. He didn't. He used up the whole runway and then some to get off the ground, and then wasn't climbing. That last part should have been the final warning not to continue flight ahead into trees and rising terrain. Assuming he wasn't smart enough to know he was 2 people too heavy in the first place, it might have been best to circle back around and land and drop 2 of those people off. Assuming he even had enough power to do that.
Just because you're off the ground doesn't mean you can fly.
"Only a fool fights in a burning house."-Kang
"If you listen to fools....The Maaahhhhb Ruuuules....."-Ronnie James Dio
You Wouldn't Think a Guy Could Live
Thru This,,, This Was a Big Hit,,,,
Aloha,,,
I like'd flying them 108 Stinson's, they came with a
Franklin 165 HP Engine,,, about the same HP as a
Cessna 170... Now,,,Cessna had the "Lift", they were
much easier to get in and out of, had better visibility,
and a much better engine package... That Franklin is
pretty close to the same engine that was in the Bell
47 helicopter series... We had a Bell 47, it would
almost fly,,, with 150 lbs of dust on-board, as long
as you didn't pack a big lunch...
Some of those Franklin's had an STC Program for
up to ??? 200 HP,,, maybe a tad more (220 HP)... We
put a STC'd engine in one Bell 47G's, I don't think it
lasted a week, before it kicked the rods out...
My Dad called them,,, "Blow Hard Franklin's"... LOL
Even if this one had a "Blow Hard Franklin" in the nose,
it's still way short on horse power,,, like about 300 HP
needed at 10,000 Feet... When you get to that kind of
altitude, you better have a "Blower" of some kind to
develop some major HP... There an't,,, no air,,, at
"Angels 10",,,,,,
These observations result in a density altitude of 9,167 feet.
Here's part of the Prelim NTSB Report For the Stinson Crash...
NTSB Report,,,
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/...TSB+Report.pdf
AV Web Report,,,
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._207184-1.html
Hard To Believe Anyone Got Out Alive,,,
[IMG]
[/IMG]
Explanation By:
"Aviation Expert" at AV Web,,,
"Ezpert" with a "Eisenstein" Sized Brain
Last edited by BigWheelHawaii; 08-11-2012 at 12:15 PM.
He has a commercial pilots license as well. Not his first incident either...
FAA records indicate the pilot of the accident aircraft, Les Gropp, held a commercial pilot certificate. The NTSB noted Gropp's injuries as serious while the other three men suffered minor injuries. Gropp had been involved in another accident in 2010, also while flying a passenger. In that incident, Gropp found himself low on fuel and elected to land the Cessna 150D he was flying at an alternate airport short of his planned destination. The aircraft reportedly attempted a landing at Smiley Creek airstrip, where the runway was covered in snow and flipped over almost immediately. Neither Gropp or his passenger were seriously injured.
When you read the NTSB articles in flying magazines the investigators always point out the basic mistakes the pilots made in crashes. How about, "This pilot may have survived had he check the fuel line(aircraft was starving for fuel)." You think. Some think they can just jump in a plane and fly it without making any safety checks and inspections. I guess they figure that a plane is like a car. If it starts, fly it.
In Memory of Dan Wheldon 1978-2011
Density altitude is a corrected figure, derived from observed altitude, barometric pressure, dew point, and temperature. Engine horsepower and the lift derived from airspeed decay as the density altitude increases. This requires a much longer takeoff roll to gain required airspeed...but if the power available and the weight of the aircraft are outside acceptable parameters, the aircraft will not gain altitude even though it is able to take off.The observations result in a density altitude of 9,167 feet.
The density altitude mentioned above leaves about 127 usable takeoff HP from the rated 165 HP of the accident aircraft.
Let's do some math...
Stinson 108-3 empty weight 1,300 lbs.
Maximum Take Off Weight 2,400 lbs.
Power loading @max takeoff weight= 14.55 lbs/HP
Service ceiling 13,000 ft (the maximum altitude the aircraft can attain)
Accident aircraft:
4 PAX X 180 Lbs= 680 lbs.
20 gallons fuel 120 Lbs. (est)
Gear, personal effects 50 lbs (est)
Optional tundra tires fitted to aircraft 30 lbs (est)
Estimated weight at takeoff 2,220 lbs.
Power loading @ takeoff= 17.5 lbs/HP
Just looking at several similar aircraft, they all have a weight/HP ratio of less than 15 lb/HP at maximum takeoff weight.
Piston aircraft engines with carburetors have a lever to manually lean the air/fuel ratio. Normally this is used as the aircraft gains altitude, the mixture is leaned to maintain the most efficient operation and to keep cylinder head temperatures in the correct range. Since the air is less dense at a high density altitude, the engine must be properly leaned before the takeoff roll begins to produce maximum power. This is critical, and at the extreme DA of the accident aircraft (over 9,000') improper leaning could have resulted in a significant reduction of available power.
Successfully operating a small aircraft in high altitude and temperature conditions takes careful planning and observation of the limits imposed by the conditions.
The pilot of the accident aircraft and his passengers were fortunate. The pilot's poor planning could have easily resulted in their deaths.
EDIT:
Take a look at the mixture control of the accident aircraft, captured from the :12 mark of the video...
The mixture control is fully forward, the richest setting. This means the engine was not developing full power during and after takeoff.
Last edited by rrrr; 08-11-2012 at 02:03 PM.
silly question from a total amature.. could the center of gravity also be an issue in this matter? load disperstion n such?
just wondering?
Don't think so...there was a guy properly positioned in each seat, and it didn't appear there was any cargo other than a five gallon water jug.
Aloha Mister Many RRRRRRR's,,,
I saw that,,,
He didn't need "Tundra Tires",,, He needed,,, JATO,,,Optional tundra tires fitted to aircraft 30 lbs
What get's me,,, Mister Many RRRR's,,, is how could
this guy walk out to that airplane, and keep a "straight
face" ??? I just couldn't do it,,,
I be laughing so hard on the inside,,,,
You Want To Do What,,,
,
Aloha Mister Many 2's,,,silly question from a total amature.. could the center of gravity also be an issue in this matter? load disperstion n such?
just wondering?
You are no amateur,,, you already know more,
and have learned more than this poor soul,,, by
a thousand times...
And that's a good point,,,, you get the pressure point
a little aft, and that also takes more energy to over come...
You know,,, the more I think about the "Tundra Tires",
that's a clue... This guy may of thought of that Stinson
108, as a poor mans Super Cub... This guy was so far
out of the performance envelope, I would of loved to
have seen the first takeoff, earlier that morning... That
also must of been a "work of art", I am sure it would
of made "Charles Augustus" blush, but sh_t nickels
at the same time....
Big
Last edited by BigWheelHawaii; 08-11-2012 at 03:10 PM.
I got about half way through the video and couldn't watch anymore.
Four people, high altitude, hot, ....
The take off run musta been about a mile....
Flew it in ground effect for another mile, or two...
Wallowing the entire way...
I figured what was comming and couldn't watch any more....
Sometimes it's a GOOD thing stupid hurts!
Too bad the other three put their trust in this bozo...
ZOOOM
"Doc, just set them fingers sose I can hold the wheel"
James Hurtubise, June, 1964
Aloha ZOOM,,,
I just wonder, this is like a Jerry Springer Moment...
I know, no one starts out in the morning, to destroy
and injure others... At least very few do,,,
This poor soul love'd that airplane, maybe just a
case of "believing" your own B/S... That happen's,
I see it around here... But it was no more than a
"Kamikaze Run", there was never a chance, not
one in a thousand, of this turning out "good"..
I know you have "flown them all" ZOOM, and
probably some of the "crates" they came in,,,
But them Stinson 108's are not big on off the
ground performance, on their very best day...
Here's a the Sectional of that area,,, that's high
country, and it's almost a complete bowl... He also
took off going up hill, 10' in the first 5000 feet, that
was just the start, and then it got worse,,,
Rich Mix,,, Up Hill,,, Hot,,, Clueless,,,
He had a better chance of success,,, Playing Russian
Roulette,,, with six slugs in the "wheel house",,,
Never,,, Never,,, Never,,, Takeoff Up-Hill,,,
I don't care if it's blowing 60 Knots on the tail, never
takeoff up hill, when performance is questionable, or
in the tank... And this was way pasted,,, "In The Tank"...
I have another clip, but its almost like "Piling On",,,
maybe later... I feel sorry for this poor man, but it's a
great lesson for other's,,,
"Think First",,, Basic's,,, "Learn to Say No",,,
and,,,
Never Get To Believing Your Own,,, Nonsense,,,
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