Pat Patrick+ Natural Gas & More

[Ajax]

Interesting read.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no348.html

From McGee:

"In IndyCar there isn't anything to sell," McGee observed. "There are no TV numbers, no crowds, no people in the grandstands, no media. The interest level has gone to zero. There are no new innovations coming down the road in racing unless the series determines they're going to have an innovation because the way the rules are written you can't do anything. There's no room to do anything and it's totally stagnant.

I tend to agree but will say that I have enjoyed the racing. But again if no one is watching does it matter?

[Fro]

People aren't going to suddenly care because the engines are natural gas. Switching to Ethanol didn't help the popularity of the series outside of Iowa. The car count situation is fine and I don't think the money saved from going to stock block engines is enough to let teams hire on merit.

There's obviously a lot of benefits to turbos... engine companies are very interested in them right now (Turbo V6s), sound cool, able to dial up and down the boost to allow for different times of circuits.

The natural gas companies certainly have money but I doubt they would be spending more than Apex Brasil, the Iowa farmers, and Sunoco. The natural gas engine stuff seems to be a new thing that the auto makers aren't pushing heavily in consumer cars heavily yet.

If the Engine manufacturers were beating down Indycar's door wanting Natural Gas-powered engines it would have happened. I don't think that was ever a realistic option for the 2012 car and I doubt Patrick signed a binding contract. Maybe something to explore with the next car after the DW12.

[Parnelli64]

Interesting read.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no348.html

From McGee:



I tend to agree but will say that I have enjoyed the racing. But again if no one is watching does it matter?

if McGee really beleives what he's saying why spend 3 years trying to get into INDYCar? ALMS numbers don't compare favorably to INDYCar...

[Z28]

I was a fan of Patrick Racing, Gordy and Mario up through when Chip took it over.

The article has to betaken in the context of the guy trying to sell the LNG that he is getting out of the ground. It's his business so of course he's got all the answers, got it all right and everybody needs to listen. So he can make a lot of money.

"The Speedway should be the innovator," Patrick said. "They should open up the series to all car manufacturers with stock-block engines. If they don't do something, we're in trouble. Jeff Belskus is a good man. I believe he's going to find the right way forward. He's going to change the way things have been done there."

Pat and McGee have all these issues with the Speedway, they know what it should be doing. The Speedway did fine when old U.E. Patrick was forming CART and was in opposition to it. So let's not appoint him the grand poobah to guide it into the future because his main issue is how he profits from 'enlightening' the Speedway.

There comes a time when people who are under the age of 70 have to be allowed to run motorsports. It's not meant to take anything away from what Patrick, McGee, Gurney or anybody else accomplished in their long winning careers from the old days but it's 2012 and they haven't been deep in the game for decades so it's time for old reporters from their era who time has passed by like Kirby, like Michael Knight, like Robin Miller to stop acting like they need to go to these voices from the past to tell the current generation how to go back to the 60's and 70's for answers to lead the sport into the 2020's and 30's.

[PenelopePitstop]

It's not meant to take anything away from what Patrick, McGee, Gurney or anybody else accomplished in their long winning careers from the old days but it's 2012 and they haven't been deep in the game for decades

If the sport was in good health in 2012 there would be no need for the old guard to be speaking. Maybe its time for you to finally heed their words?

[steal your face]

If the HG family came up with the idea it would be treated like it was gold. Because it is an ex CART team owner it is a horrible idea.

[jabba19]

The Speedway did fine when old U.E. Patrick was forming CART and was in opposition to it. So let's not appoint him the grand poobah to guide it into the future because his main issue is how he profits from 'enlightening' the Speedway.

There comes a time when people who are under the age of 70 have to be allowed to run motorsports. It's not meant to take anything away from what Patrick, McGee, Gurney or anybody else accomplished in their long winning careers from the old days but it's 2012 and they haven't been deep in the game for decades so it's time for old reporters from their era who time has passed by like Kirby, like Michael Knight, like Robin Miller to stop acting like they need to go to these voices from the past to tell the current generation how to go back to the 60's and 70's for answers to lead the sport into the 2020's and 30's.

Forming CART was not going against the Speedway, the Speedway took it that way. They did it to grow the sport and they accomplished that until the Speedway came back into wanting control.

[PenelopePitstop]

Forming CART was not going against the Speedway, the Speedway took it that way. They did it to grow the sport and they accomplished that until the Speedway came back into wanting control.

It seems that the Speedway seldom sold out before the creation of CART, then they experienced more than a decade of those continuous sellout crowds the Disciple loves to tell us about, then for some reason in 1996 those crowds slowly started to diminish to the point they reached in 2012.

Coincidence?

[steal your face]

Someone needs to correct Pat and Jim and tell them that it is the fans who are at fault for not attending the races. They should have known better if you were to believe some here.

[Parnelli64]

If the HG family came up with the idea it would be treated like it was gold. Because it is an ex CART team owner it is a horrible idea.

Patrick also ran in the IRL, they have a product to sell, plain and simple, and because INDYCar's not buying, they knock on the door of Kirby's double-wide and bad mouth INDYCar for not recognizing their genius...as I said before, if they believe so strongly that INDYCar is in the toliet, why then are they wanting so bad to use INDYCar as the platform to market their natural gas???

[ndcrs]

If the HG family came up with the idea it would be treated like it was gold. Because it is an ex CART team owner it is a horrible idea.

just to keep things in context of what was written - i didn't read that the h-g family said it was a horrible idea. and further, i think the h-g fam gave plenty of credit to those who helped develop the safer barrier, so maybe read without a grudge.

[ndcrs]

most interesting thing about the article to me is that lng needs 5-15% oxygen to burn. normal breathing air is around 20%. that actually sounds like a safety feature to prevent fires. can anyone validate that statement from mcgee?

if it is true and they don't actually have a super high pressure tank on the car, i think it would be interesting and likely be able to transfer to passenger cars at some point. that could drive manufacturer support which would lessen foriegn oil dependency.

[Jakester]

most interesting thing about the article to me is that lng needs 5-15% oxygen to burn. normal breathing air is around 20%. that actually sounds like a safety feature to prevent fires. can anyone validate that statement from mcgee?

"If you were trying to light it, it takes a gas to oxygen mixture of between five and fifteen percent

I think what that means is a air-fuel ratio containing 5-10% LNG, or A/F ratio of 20:1-10:1. Compare that to gasoline's stochiometric A/F ratio of 14.7:1

But LNG is not explosive in its liquid form.

Technically the same can be said for gasoline....and methanol or ethanol. In both cases, it's the vapor that burns.

I've some issues with how Patrick describes the 'safety' of LNG.

[Turn13]

Someone needs to correct Pat and Jim and tell them that it is the fans who are at fault for not attending the races. They should have known better if you were to believe some here.

Wow, this seems to be getting repeated a lot lately Thanks

But like so many willful misinterpretations, it needs to be clarified from time to time:

Fans certainly aren't the only thing wrong with the sport, and they have reason to have been P.O.'d and turned off, but certainly their behavior as a community and as influencers on future fans has been a net negative until recently.

We're getting better

Any / every enterprise depends first and foremost on the endorsement of fans to survive. Not an opinion - a fact.

As a group, we've been pretty schizophrenic, to say the least - turbos, non-turbos, more speed, less speed, more cost, less cost, ovals vs. roads, and on and on.

As Eddie Gossage said, now is the time for those who don't want the sport to die, to pitch in together, help each other out. It's triage, folks, we need people like a patient needs oxygen.

It may not be the job of the fans to make it popular, but nobody else can It's certainly in the best interest of anyone who doesn't want it to die.

Some think it would be better that way - to have a new beginning from scratch. Good luck with that.

The fact of the matter is, it's still the world's fastest oval racing series, it's got the historic Indy 500, and it's the one premier, very very fast and exciting racing series that may be coming to a venue near you. No cabs, no trucks.

Everything we all want for the sport, though - better cars, better drivers, freedom in specs, choice in venues, cooler stuff, more and better-looking fans... they are all dependent on having a few more fans show up and tune in first. Those few would be you, me, and the people we influence.

Drop the Flag

Now, from time to time I have also made the tongue-in-cheek observation that it's the fans that aren't there that lower TV ratings and attendance levels, which s true And that I blame the ever-gloomy hdolan, among others, for the trend, since he began losing enthusiasm for IndyCar in favor of Cup back in the early 90's Hey, you just can't argue with the math and science

Other helpful posts: http://www.trackforum.com/forums/sho...=1#post3113135
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/sho...=1#post3112435

Hopefully we can return to the topic at hand without further distractions Thanks

[mdkiel]

It seems that the Speedway seldom sold out before the creation of CART...

Can someone confirm that I actually read this?

[Sleepcheap]

most interesting thing about the article to me is that lng needs 5-15% oxygen to burn. normal breathing air is around 20%. that actually sounds like a safety feature to prevent fires. can anyone validate that statement from mcgee?

if it is true and they don't actually have a super high pressure tank on the car, i think it would be interesting and likely be able to transfer to passenger cars at some point. that could drive manufacturer support which would lessen foriegn oil dependency.

Compressed natural gas vehicles are already in use and have been for years. The numbers are fairly low because of high initial cost and very few refueling stations. Most refueling stations are owned by government agencies or commercial fleet operators and not available to the public. CNG stores at ~3,000 psi at ambient temperature and requires a very heavy tank.

LNG can get as low as 5 psi below -262° F but usually ends up around 100 psi as temperature goes above that. It requires a heavily insulated tank to maintain liquid state. The tank is vented because of boil off due to heat getting through the insulation. All LNG vehicles at this point are heavy duty trucks with dual fuel engines. The boil off makes it uneconomical for a vehicle that spends a lot of time sitting idle.

I find it interesting that Patrick has chosen to go the LNG route. I assume it's because the insulated tank ends up being a lot smaller and lighter than a thick walled tank.



CNG vehicles

[Parnelli64]

Can someone confirm that I actually read this?

wow! wow! and double wow! I guess the Earth really was formed in 1979...the greatest years of the INDY 500 were the post-WWII 1950's and 60's. anyboby whose ever read a book should know that...under the stewardship of Mr. Tony Hulman, INDYCar really took off.

Next I'll be reading a post about how Tony Hulman would have embraced CART...he'd have embraced them around the neck and cut off their air flow...

[Turn13]

...the greatest years of the INDY 500 were the post-WWII 1950's and 60's. anybody whose ever read a book should know that...

Well, that depends on the book My personal favorite years were 1966 thru 1976, during which experience I saw crowds grow, the stands grow, the teams grow, the commercial value grow, and the speed records fall Oh, and puberty

The thing is, attendance and the commercial strength of the teams continued to grow through the 90's, up until, well, you know. They were still building stands until, what, '90-something?

The infield changed, and ratings declined, but for a lot of reasons that still left the event AND the series strong and growing stronger, even as the gap to the old grassroots grew weaker.

Too bad they couldn't all keep working and growing together. Hard to say it wouldn't have been better.

[PenelopePitstop]

wow! wow! and double wow! I guess the Earth really was formed in 1979...the greatest years of the INDY 500 were the post-WWII 1950's and 60's. anyboby whose ever read a book should know that...under the stewardship of Mr. Tony Hulman, INDYCar really took off.

Which years were sellouts from 1946 through 1978?

[Turn13]

Which years were sellouts from 1946 through 1978?

All but the first one, if I recall correctly. Or close to it. Although, come to think if it, I was too young to need to be buying my own tickets then

Why else would they continue to build stands? If it wasn't an actual sellout, it was darn close and the best seats definitely were, and often within days after each race.

[PenelopePitstop]

All but the first one, if I recall correctly. Or close to it. Although, come to think if it, I was too young to need to be buying my own tickets then

Why else would they continue to build stands? If it wasn't an actual sellout, it was darn close and the best seats definitely were, and often within days after each race.

So you don't know. Why not say so?

Yes, it was very successful in those years and the place expanded the seating to accommodate the large crowds. But the place rarely was a sellout - particularly in the late 70s. About 3-4 years into the CART era the place started selling out every year. It was by far the most-attended decade and a half for the Indy 500 in its 100-year history. Then Tony George fixed it.

[Parnelli64]

So you don't know. Why not say so?

Yes, it was very successful in those years and the place expanded the seating to accommodate the large crowds. But the place rarely was a sellout - particularly in the late 70s. About 3-4 years into the CART era the place started selling out every year. It was by far the most-attended decade and a half for the Indy 500 in its 100-year history. Then Tony George fixed it.

do you have something to go on here besides your rote memory?

[PenelopePitstop]

do you have something to go on here besides your rote memory?

Do you?

I've read many articles about this and read some serious posts here at TF on the subject. Can you name a better-attended era in IMS history than from 1983-1995?

One thing I'm 100% sure of: Ever since Tony George fixed things the attendance has dropped significantly.

[Indyknut]

wow! wow! and double wow! I guess the Earth really was formed in 1979...the greatest years of the INDY 500 were the post-WWII 1950's and 60's. anyboby whose ever read a book should know that...under the stewardship of Mr. Tony Hulman, INDYCar really took off.

Next I'll be reading a post about how Tony Hulman would have embraced CART...he'd have embraced them around the neck and cut off their air flow...

Well, it's not like Indycar had a lot of competition during those years for viewers or fans. The Hulman family, Tony Hulman included, failed to keep Indycar flying after it "took off" during those years. I suspect it was his overall concern for his one race versus the overall health of the series as a whole that led to the decline of Indy car in the 70's and what caused the team owners to take action to prevent it from becoming a notation in the history books.

[mdkiel]

Do you?

I've read many articles about this and read some serious posts here at TF on the subject.

Iron clad research. Lock it up.

[PenelopePitstop]

Iron clad research. Lock it up.

As solid as yours. IMS doesn't release numbers, so the only evidence is anecdotal.

Read my previous posts carefully. The Indy 500 was certainly successful during that period and it grew accordingly. Nobody disputes that. But the best attendances came during the CART era. That ended with TG's infamous decision.

[Ajax]

most interesting thing about the article to me is that lng needs 5-15% oxygen to burn. normal breathing air is around 20%. that actually sounds like a safety feature to prevent fires. can anyone validate that statement from mcgee?

if it is true and they don't actually have a super high pressure tank on the car, i think it would be interesting and likely be able to transfer to passenger cars at some point. that could drive manufacturer support which would lessen foriegn oil dependency.

I was hoping for someone with more brains to post something interesting such as this.

[Ajax]

Compressed natural gas vehicles are already in use and have been for years. The numbers are fairly low because of high initial cost and very few refueling stations. Most refueling stations are owned by government agencies or commercial fleet operators and not available to the public. CNG stores at ~3,000 psi at ambient temperature and requires a very heavy tank.

LNG can get as low as 5 psi below -262° F but usually ends up around 100 psi as temperature goes above that. It requires a heavily insulated tank to maintain liquid state. The tank is vented because of boil off due to heat getting through the insulation. All LNG vehicles at this point are heavy duty trucks with dual fuel engines. The boil off makes it uneconomical for a vehicle that spends a lot of time sitting idle.

I find it interesting that Patrick has chosen to go the LNG route. I assume it's because the insulated tank ends up being a lot smaller and lighter than a thick walled tank.



CNG vehicles

Thanks for this!

[mdkiel]

As solid as yours. IMS doesn't release numbers, so the only evidence is anecdotal.

Read my previous posts carefully. The Indy 500 was certainly successful during that period and it grew accordingly. Nobody disputes that. But the best attendances came during the CART era. That ended with TG's infamous decision.

Having read your posts carefully, I see iron clad opinion.

"But the best attendances came during the CART era." .....Based on anecdotal evidence. Got it.

[PenelopePitstop]

Having read your posts carefully, I see iron clad opinion.

"But the best attendances came during the CART era." .....Based on anecdotal evidence. Got it.

Sold out venue at the time of the largest seating capacity. Ironclad opinion, certainly.

I realize that your beliefs won't be swayed by my statements. But I know that you will agree that TG's fix reduced the crowd size in 1996.