You know by your own logic you're indirectly stating that IRL/IMS is as well?Originally Posted by lkchris
Also with the new fenders in ICS you're close enough to NASCAR to just head over there and enjoy that series instead.
Americans are gone - unless NASCAR gets AOW, they are never coming back because the farm system is more of a joke then it ever has been in the last 20 years.
Yet one more thing that socialized welfare (H/G) could have been spent on instead of trying to kill CART/CCWS.
OMG, selling it to NASCAR? When a competitor company buys you, it is to accomplish two things: Buy your market share, and 2.) put you out of business. If NASCAR buys Indy Car (think about what they have done when they bought a track) it will be shuttered by sundown.
Second issue: Arguing about CART and/or Tony George is like looking at two turds and arguing over whether they are black or brown. If you can't move on from that era, then you are in the wrong place. Go to a forum where CART (what?) and Tony George (Who?) have never been heard of, and have at it. Both of them , in retrospect, stunk. THAT is what you are arguing about.
I posted elsewhere that the series will not be sold, if for no other reason than without the series the 500 will be a very different event ( i never thought about it being tin tops, but that could be possible if the series is sold and quickly goes broke. Talk about blasphemy!).
But that doesn't mean that Championship Open Wheel Racing doesn't need help. Lots of it. Neither of the previous models held water for very long. The new model has not yet been seen, although many of us have opinions (mine are SO bad they have not even been attempted) about where to from here.
But to hash over two failed models is just silly. Take it to a social forum where you can rail away to your hearts content, and it won't have any more meaning about redeveloping the sport than it does here, but at least it will be commented on by someone serious (perhaps a psychologist) about the where's and why's of your comments.
The rest of us remaining Open Wheel fans would love for the sport to move forward, and exist ten years from now. What happened ten or twenty years ago off the track is of no interest to us, except to note that it happened, and it spelled a death knell for the sport which we cherish.
There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now the parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight
I ain't quiet, everybody else is too loud.
Yep...and so are any chances of ever being a relevant racing entity again.
If this was called the NASCAR IZOD Indy Car Series, their ratings would double automatically. In modern-day racing, If you are linked with NASCAR, you have a chance to succeed. If you aren't, you don't.
Prime Minister of Gackland
If it was the NASCAR IZOD Indycar Series it would run on Thursday nights in support of the Trucks. And IMS would have 24 degrees of banking and 43 stock cars would run there on Memorial Day weekend.
professional assessor of sanity
Sadly, unless some folks want to save the series, that is pretty much where we are headed. Like GM and Kodak it might take ten years to get there while the series lives on the glory of the 500, but seriously, even now the pecking order of racing popularity puts Indy Car down there somewhere below the trucks and world of outlaws (which, outside of the 500, probably draws more fans--and people certainly know who the drivers are).
But, you know, running with a popular series is not all that bad if it puts the cars in front of eyeballs. The bottom is out there somewhere; i don't know where, but running as a support show that has TV and has fans can't be bad for Indy Car. Maybe that is the bottom from which they rebuild. I would rather see that and know people are trying hard to build a racing series, than see all this la-di-da stuff about running Indy Cars at Pocono and have 30,000 people show up--maybe.
Can you post any statistics to back this up?
Didn't IndyCar outdraw the trucks sigtnificantly at TMS?
You would think that "drawing more fans" would result in higher TV ratings - what's a typical WoO race TV rating?
Thanks
Last edited by doitagain; 08-21-2012 at 07:23 PM.
"The series may be hesitant to say it, but the day is here for everybody that loves IndyCar racing to link arms and help each other out. Anybody who doesn’t want to do that needs to find something else to do with their time.”
-- Eddie Gossage, President, Texas Motor Speedway, ICONIC Advisory Committee & TrackForum member
They know what NASCAR race fans want. Their foray into Grand Am hasn't been as successful.
Nonsense.
Grand Am is linked with NASCAR and could hardly be called successful. The vast majority have no clue that it even exists.
Conversely, F1 is not linked with NASCAR yet is more successful and better known than any series in the world.
Last edited by Spike; 08-21-2012 at 08:38 PM.
"The IRL's future should be good, but it can't be the grass-roots series Tony George envisioned. That was a wet dream." - Bobby Unser
I predict a Digger cam in turn 1 at IMS the minute that happens!
.....right off of your head
I think NASCAR would want to build up a NASCAR-owned IndyCar somewhat so that they could have 3 events at their ISC-owned tracks.
The cabs would clearly be the top dogs but I think IndyCar would slot in over the Truck series & Grand-Am.
NASCAR/ISC obviously see some reason to keep IndyCar alive.
All they'd have to do is start the Coca-Cola 600 at noon and it'd all be over. Just like that.
But they've never done it. There are reasons why.
All they have to do is look at the ratings hit that the Indy 500 took back in 1986 going from Prime time to live during the middle of the day on Memorial Day Weekend, to see why they wouldn't want to start it at noon.
The point was if NASCAR really wanted IndyCar gone that badly that they would consider buying IndyCar just to shut it down, as some suggest they will or are worried they will, it'd be a lot easier to take a one-year ratings hit on the 600 to kill it off than to buy the entire thing.
But NASCAR isn't going to do either of those things. They'll let IndyCar exist as its own thing.
1. That's because its road racing. Road racing isn't popular and will never be popular in this country. NASCAR-linked or not. NASCAR has probably saved Grand Am from extinction though.
2. Its a 1.0 TV rated sport in America though. That won't ever change either.
I have posted before that Bruton Smith and / or SMI made an offer to buy IMS and Indy car racing last year. It was the second time that I know of that they had made an offer. This offer was not as high as the first. If I were to post the amount many would be shocked at how relatively low it was.
quote:
"It is sad that open-wheel racing has become a buy a ride situation, but it is what it is."
Seemingly, everyone thinks Indycar needs to be a "series."
It could very easily be only one race, i.e. the 500.
In terms of significance and fan interest and TV coverage, that's essentially what it is today.
Personally, I think the 500 is the only thing the Hulman-George family thinks about and it's a bit difficult to understand why they should do anything but that. It's already been comprehensively proven that this sort of racing cannot survive without the 500 and corollary to that it seems a bit silly to think supporting a "series" with indeed other races elsewhere can and should be anything but an attempt to break even.
Like safer barriers and cars with fenders, we all have a lot to thank this family for, as it's pretty generous of them to take on all that it entails to run a "series" when clearly they don't really need to. They have demonstratedly reached out to work with and even help some pretty poor businesspersons--who share a love of racing similar to theirs--and this effort, along with their significant investments, make them true American heroes.
Then why not sell it?
You can enjoy your race and we can enjoy our series... Not that I have not enjoyed it this season. Do I think it could be far better? Hell yeah!
Did you just realize this?
they've certainly shown no skills in running OW racing in the past beyond Indy nor shown much interest in it other than it needs to be there.and it's a bit difficult to understand why they should do anything but that.
And as we've seen as the Indy 500 has dropped from it's glory of yesteryear, that race doesn't do so well when the race series that supports it isn't functioning properly.It's already been comprehensively proven that this sort of racing cannot survive without the 500 and corollary to that it seems a bit silly to think supporting a "series" with indeed other races elsewhere can and should be anything but an attempt to break even.
Here's a history lesson for you.Like safer barriers and cars with fenders, we all have a lot to thank this family for, as it's pretty generous of them to take on all that it entails to run a "series" when clearly they don't really need to.
OW racing was going on in this country before there was an Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
The Hulmans neither built the speedway nor invented Indy car racing.
Tony Hulman created USAC when he realized the OW sanctioning body, AAA was going to shut down. Obviously he realized that without racing outside of Indy the odds would be good he'd have a hard time finding cars to put on the track in May.
I'll refrain from responding to your "lot to be thankful to the Hulmans for" comment.
Geez, it's getting deep in here. We're all gonna need chest waders with that comment.They have demonstratedly reached out to work with and even help some pretty poor businesspersons--who share a love of racing similar to theirs--and this effort, along with their significant investments, make them true American heroes.
Of course, this needs to happen, and things worked great when things ran this way. It gets the series off IMS' books, and IMS can do what it does best, be a great host for a race.
When one thinks of all the time, money, fans, drivers, prestige squandered just to put things back to where they were in 1995...
No, it hasn't. Not even close. There have been no recent attempts to have no Indy 500, at all, while staging an OW series.
Quit trolling. CART ruled American OW and was the highest point ever seen by Indy and American OW. CART was the best show ever to run at Indy, and it was a smashing success until Tony blew up the whole sport.
The mod of this place doesn't want split talk, so knock off the flamebait, because we CART fans are forced to respond to your trolling.
Not even close. Anyone who knows anything about auto racing knows that Indy was at its highest in the early 90's, crashing in 1996.
Since the Indy500 knew it was dead in 1996 without the prestige of CART, why has it continued to slowly bleed itself dry over the past 16 years, instead of begging CART to reconstitute itself and return with its superior management, drivers, cars, officials, event promotion and fans?
Except for that fact that during that time, it had also slipped from being the most popular U.S. motorsport to trailing NASCAR for the first time.
Smoking 357, now THAT'S a troll. Arrogance is intact as well. You know, I have enjoyed most of the evolutionary phases of IndyCar through the decades, and the early 90's were certainly one of the high points. But the highest? Not hardly. You'd have to go back to before 1970 for that. But since most who tout 1995 or thereabouts as the highest are usually not old enough to fully understand and respect the rich history of the entire sport. And that is really too bad.
But when completely ignorant statements such as "...the Indy 500 is bottom dragging. It's fallen as low as it ever has in the public eye. Is it any wonder that's happened at the same time the series that races there has done the same thing?" are made the relative lack of cognizance is obvious. The Indy 500 continues to draw hundreds of thousands of fans multiple times in May and 300K+ on race day, just like always. Highest rated open wheel race too. Lots of sponsorship and notable one-offs. Bottom dragging? There has rarely been a more clueless statement typed on any racing forum.
Word of advice: Nurture what you have and evolve.
-The Breathes Through My Nose, Too Disciple of INDYCAR
Putting the owners in charge now will finally END the sport for good. Yes, yes, the 80's-'95 were great. CART was very necessary in 1979. USAC couldn't run the sport, not professionally, and had no understanding of where the sport could and needed to go. BUT it's a hardly a rousing endorsement to say they were better than USAC; two chimps could have run things better than USAC. CART's understanding of the technical aspects of the sport propelled it to great things. For that, they must be credited.
But it was sorely lacking in everything else it took to manage a sport. Joke CEOs who never had enough autonomy, inward-looking, short-sighted decision making with no clear ideas on the future. Etc. Now, this wasn't a problem as long as the thing was on "autoglide." The gravy train kept rolling an everyone benefited. But then, three things happened:
The rise of NASCAR. Even w/o the split, it was going to happen, permanently supplanting IndyCar as top dog. Which would have meant less sponsorship $, somewhat smaller fan base, etc.
The split itself. Here is where the business model failed. Given adversity, CART/the owners made one awful decision after another. Now, yes, some of this must be put on Tony George, but he didn't make these decisions for them. They had divergent interests, couldn't agree on anything and paralyzed the series.
The technical stuff blew up. Pop-off valves, spacer-gate, etc. CART was caught totally flat-footed by escalating speeds and eventually ruined the aero package on short and inter. ovals. Here, too, they were too divided to deal w/ Honda and Toyota.
Given the state of the sport now and their egos, putting the owners in charge would end it for good. The trainwreck might provide for dark humor, but that's it.
Trackforum.com: Where Hope goes to die.
My first race was 1966. Among the World Champions and driving greats who competed that year were Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Dan Gurney, AJ Foyt, Mario Andretti, Gordon Johncock, Al Unser, Parnelli Jones, Rodger Ward, Mel Kenyon, and Cale Yarborough. How's that for excellence and diversity??
Still a fan even after 46 straight years of decline
This is how badass it was:
Thank you Andrew Basterfield for the great pic
"Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"
Brian's Wish
That was because NASCAR was doing things right, not that CART was doing things wrong. All auto racing was strong in 1995.
No split talk, no CART flamebaiting, I thought that was the new rule? Tony George, the IRL, IMS yellow-shirts, and old-timers were 100% at fault for the decline of open wheel. CART did its best to continue to put on a world-class show, despite the IRL dragging down all of American open wheel. Put things back to where they were in 1995, and we might have a chance of reviving this sport.
Nice car, but no wings, no venturis, no carbon fibre, no sidepods, no fuel mapping, no turbocharger.
I just highlighted all the hyperbole (there's a LOT)
how can you be a "fan" of a series that went bankrupt and out of business TEN YEARS AGO? might want to see if your reality check clears the bank...
"No, we don't have a lot of money...No, we don't have a lot of money...No, we don't have a lot of money..." Zak Brown
Indy still draws a couple hundred thousand in May though there are seats still for sale on raceday vs. the race being a sellout a year in advance not that long ago. The attendance for pole day has fallen off the map.
It's the TV numbers that have dropped to lowest in memory. Daytona 500, The SuperBowl, KY Derby, World Series, all major sporting events that have managed to pretty much maintain a constant viewership over the years. The Indy 500 OTOH, has not.
Prior to 1996, the Indy 500 was drawing a decent 9.0-10.0, CART races would draw a 2.0 to 3.0. Now? Less than half those numbers for both. Seems like a trend D. A trend corporate sponsors take notice of and it's relating to teams having a lot of difficulty finding sponsorship to pay the bills.
Well, as "fan" is short for "fanatic" and the definition of a fanatic is "One who redoubles his efforts after losing sight of the original goal"....
But yeah, 10 years is a long time to hold a grudge.
I guess if you have nothing better to do it fills the time.
"Duty is the most sublime word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less" - R.E.Lee
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks