Continuing the Abandonment of Racing Tradition

[patrick]

Why the surprise over CART dropping Michigan from next year's schedule? Isn't this what CART has done since it was founded in 1979? When CART was formed, the vast majority of drivers were from the US, and most events were at ovals in the US, which is what Champ Car racing had been since the 1930's. Since then, the number of events at ovals have steadily decreased (remember Trenton, Pocono, Ontario, Texas World Speedway, etc.), and the number of road course or street/parking lot (aka "temporary") courses have increased. The famous American drivers such as Al & Bobby Unser, Rutherford, Sneva, Mears, Foyt, Andretti, Dallenbach, etc. have been replaced with the Foreign Legion from Brazil, Canada, Mexico, etc. Is it any wonder that NASCAR is now regarded more highly in this country? I was a kid back then, but in the 60's & 70's Champ Car drivers were well known, and considered the equal (or better) than NASCAR stars. today, one can barely name any of the CART "Stars". I would not be surprised if Milwaukee follows shortly in departing the CART fold, because CART's Continuing Abandonment of Race Tracks (ovals) has been ongoing.

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[racemutt]

Wow! Even the NASCAR boys race on a couple of road courses. They don't do it very well but they could get better with practice. IF all you want to watch is cars going around in circles, tyr NASCAR, IRL, ot your local dirt track.

[patrick]

Yes, NASCAR does a couple of road course races. However, except for the callous dropping of North Wilkesboro from the schedule several years back, NASCAR has stuck to its roots: US drivers at ovals in the US. CART on the other hand has degenerated into a Formula 1 wannabe circuit, thus abandoning traditional American Champ Car Racing. that is the point I am trying to make.

[Scarab16]

If you want to point fingers about breaking traditions, try the late USAC/Hulman regime of the 1970s. Starting in 1971, road courses where dropped from the USAC championship trail and the series quickly declined into the moribund mess that brought the owners together to form CART. If anything, "oval only" is the abberation, which is periodically corrected by an infusion of road racing driving and engineering talent. Natural terrain road courses and street courses were an integral part of the AAA championship from 1909--when the events at Indianapolis were the only oval races on the schedule.

>>Since then, the number of events at ovals have steadily decreased (remember Trenton, Pocono, Ontario, Texas World Speedway, etc.), and the number of road course or street/parking lot (aka "temporary") courses have increased.<<

CART diligently kept Trenton on its schedule until it closed. Ontario folded. Texas World Speedway folded a couple of times. Pocono became unsafe. Michigan was in recievership when Roger Penske bought it. CART has actually added oval races at new venues like Sanair, Nazareth, Motegi, Gateway, and Homestead, and Fontana. They've experimented with "rovals" in Las Vegas and Rio. Some of these races no longer exist, being badly promoted and not viable. During this same time period CART also has left street courses like the Meadowlands and Denver. Riverside was lost to developers. Watkins Glen (where I saw my first CART sanctioned champcar race--the Kent Oil 150 in 1979) went heavily into debt and stopped holding major events until Corning Glass stepped in.

[This message has been edited by Scarab16 (edited 06-21-2001).]

[TxIndyFan]

"The famous American drivers such as Al & Bobby Unser, Rutherford, Sneva, Mears, Foyt, Andretti, Dallenbach, etc. have been replaced with the Foreign Legion from Brazil, Canada, Mexico, etc. Is it any wonder that NASCAR is now regarded more highly in this country? I was a kid back then, but in the 60's & 70's Champ Car drivers were well known, and considered the equal (or better) than NASCAR stars. today, one can barely name any of the CART "Stars".

In the 60's and 70's the Champ Car drivers were much better known than NASCAR stars, except in Dixie, and Richard Petty. Remember stockers like Cale Yarborough, Tim Richmond, Bobby and Donnie Allison all used to come to Indy to race.

... and at one time, Michigan was a CART "signature" event...

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If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten

[Jakester]

Yep, I remember Trenton, Pocono, Ontario, Texas World Speedway. Trenton and Ontario went away, Pocono and TWS became quite impractical to race on.

The 'tradition' of Champ Cars also included dirt tracks, where are they now? I think you'd agree that it's no longer practical to run that type of track.

Indeed Scarab is right, the earliest AAA races in the US were road races (check up on the history of the original Vanderbilt Cup).

Tradition does not mean no change. If that were true, we'd still be running front engine cars, skinny tires and fat drivers.

[midtown]

Actually, Tim Richmond started in openwheel and Indy cars. I think it was a bad wreck at Michigan that led him to the "safer" cars of NASCAR.

[MrIndy]

Originally posted by midtown:
Actually, Tim Richmond started in openwheel and Indy cars. I think it was a bad wreck at Michigan that led him to the "safer" cars of NASCAR.

And it is a real shame his life style ended his life. I really like Tim. He had everything going for him, I guess in reality, he had too much going for him. I still feel sadness over his death.

[MrIndy]

Originally posted by Scarab16:
If you want to point fingers about breaking traditions, try the late USAC/Hulman regime of the 1970s, Starting in 1971, road courses where dropped from the USAC championship tail

I admit my memory is fading fast, but I was a pretty avid Champ Trail fan in the '50's, '60's and '70's and I fail to remember any road courses. Those guys who drove at Indy in the dirt cars (early '50s), and roadsters (thru the mid-60's) like Bryan, Hanks, McGrath, Vuky and etc., were not running on road courses anywhere. They ran midgets, dirt and sprints but no road courses.

Please help me out here Scarab, where were the road courses on the AAA/USAC schedule?

[Railbird]

Tradition is often times just an excuse to keep doing things wrong..

Why do I hear no wailings for dirt road circuits, board speedways, or fairgound bullrings..?

Champiopnship racing began with races like the Vanderbilt Cup and the Briarcliff Trophy which were both held on dirt roadcourses..

From 1915 to the mid depresion years the board speedways formed the bulk of the season..

Post WWII racing centered on the fairground bull rings until USAC unceremoniously dropped them...

Driver nationalities are much the same...The early years of Indianapolis were filled with names such as Dario Resta (Dario?), Rene Thomas, Jules Goux, Ralph DePalma, and many others from across the pond...The horrors of WWI and it's economic ruin kept those folks away until racing in Europe was halted for WWII..When Wibur Shaw demonstrated the superiority of the Maserati 2c drivers such as Rene LeBegue and Raul Riganti came over to test the waters..

The aftermath of the second world war kept European manufacturers at bay post war but not the drivers...George Robson, a native of England, won the 46 rendtion while Luigi Villoresi and Louis Tomei were field fillers..The great Rudi Caracciola was severly injured practicing for the event..Alberto Ascari led a Ferarri factory assault in 52..Less than ten years later the rear engine assault was launched by John Cooper and Jack Brabham..

pick your era, pick your tradition, in racing there are no sacred cows, just old ideas that get discarded. If not we would still be watching chain drive Blitzen Benz's on some country road..

[Railbird]

MrIndy..

The first USAC road race was held at IRP July 25 1965...I sat in a tree outside the back straight to watch Norm Hall lose his foot flipping an old roadster, Jud Larson turning right in a dirt car and the portly Texan lose to Mario because of faulty fuel strategy...No word on whether he tossed a Ouija board, or whatever they calculate fuel with back then, upon returning to his pit..

There was also Fuji, Mosport, St Jovite, Las Vegas, Castle Rock Co, Brainard Minn, Kent Wash, and Riverside, just to name the ones from the sixties...

The AAA contest board sanctioned all racing in the early days of American racing which included the Vanderbilt races, Elgin Ill road races, Mines field in LA, the Briarcliff road race in Westchester NY..


I've got pictures of Bryan and Hanks wheeling old specials in west coast road races...After Vukie started to collect Indy wins he cut way back on other form of racing which is why he only collect four champ wins total..He did however find time to run the pan america open road race down in Mexico for the Lincoln factory team...Rodger Ward won a formula libre against all comers and qualified a midget in the USGP held at Sebring...Jim Rathmann competed in the USRRC and Lloyd Ruby was considered a natural road racer even though he started in midgets..

[This message has been edited by Railbird (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Eagle104]

Thanks, 'bird.

Even Bob Sweikert raced those "sporty cars"(what Rathmann calls them) at Sebring.

"....and the portly Texan lose to Mario because of faulty fuel strategy...No word on whether he tossed a Ouija board, or whatever they calculate fuel with back then, upon returning to his pit..

[Scarab16]

Railbird has supplied almost all most of the1960s USAC road courses except for Sears Point (Sonoma, CA). I'm sure that Eagle104 would be happy to point out that as a driver Dan Gurney won his last champcar race at Sears Point in the spring of 1970.

In the early AAA years (1909-1916) there were also championship road/street races in Philadelphia, PA, (Fairmont Park); Savannah, Ga. (Vanderbilt Cup and American Grand Prize races); Milwaukee, WI; Santa Monica, CA (Vanderbilt Cup and American Grand Prize races), and Phoenix, AZ. There was a point-to-point race run from Los Angeles to Phoenix as well. [Another in this period at Corona, CA?]

In the 1930s, in addition to the AAA sanctioned races at Roosevelt Raceway, LI, NY (Vanderbilt Cup revivals) there was also a championship points paying race on an airport circuit, Mines Field near Los Angeles.

I'm sure that I've missed a few, but I think these are enough to suggest that "oval only" is at least as much an abberation for champcar series as some would contend a "road/street only" series championship would be.

>>The horrors of WWI and it's economic ruin kept those folks away until racing in Europe was halted for
WWII..When Wibur Shaw demonstrated the superiority of the Maserati 2c drivers such as Rene LeBegue and Raul Riganti came over to test the waters.<<

The new 3.0l factory cars of Georges Ballot were at Indy for a couple of years right after WWI. The 2.0 liter Benz Grand Prix cars brought supercharging to Indy in the early 20s. Alfred Moss (father of Sterling Moss) raced at Indy while on a tour of the US to study American techniques in dental medicine. And there was some cross pollination in the 20s and 30s as well. US cars and drivers competed in various European Grand Prix during the 1920s as well--notably Jimmy Murphy winning the French GP in a Duesenberg, while others raced in GPs using fwd and rwd Millers. In the 1930s at the Roosevelt Raceway Vanderbilt Cup races, Wilbur Shaw was impressed enough by what was by European standards a second rate "customer" GP car from Maserati to buy one and win Indy with it a couple of times. From the other direction, Rex Mays impressed Count Orsi and the Maserati factory team enough during the Vanderbilt Cup races to invite him to come and drive for Maserati in European races.




[This message has been edited by Scarab16 (edited 06-22-2001).]

[bkeske]

Scarab and Railbird; Thanks for the wonderfull posts by you gentleman. Since I began my 'race bug' in the mid-to late 70's these are wonderfull historical notes to read. Almost makes me want to go out and get some books on this stuff.

Thanks again, and thanks for dispelling some of the myth's we always seem to hear regarding 'racing tradition' in the US.

[This message has been edited by bkeske (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Old Clunker]

Hats off to Scarab and Bird. Strang how clearing the air with facts can change a conversaton. Thanks folks.

For all the foo-foo-rah of many it appears that CART is doing a pretty fair job of preserving it's roots and carrying on most of the traditions in "American" racin' we still pay the big bucks to appreciate.

Tomorrow they start their Friday test rituals just downe the road from where I hang out. Just the sound of them each year is a great upper for this old dude.

Depending on who you read here in Portland the 4-5 days they are in town is worth 15 - 25 million for the local folks. Guess they ain't tight with the gratitude.

Looking for more great racin' from a bunch top notch guys in our leading open wheel series.

Old Clunker

[backstroke]

On the other hand, roadracing does seem to have its future well assured, while oval racing I think will benefit from a series dedicated to that purpose.

It's all good.

Thanks guys. It's nice to see Eagle10 rousted from the Nostalgia bed I really appreciate the discussion.

[MrIndy]

Hey thanks guys. I guess I concentrated most of my interest on the old state fair circuits the champ cars ran. I do remember when there was talk of running road courses with champ cars, but do not remember when it was.

Maybe if I wasn't taking all this dam pain medicine I could remember a lot more.

Thanks 'Bird and Scarab!

'Bird, you mentioned somethin' I think everyone in the U.S. would love to see: dirt road courses. Man, laugh or not, that is something that would draw a crowd.

Maybe I will start a dirt course racing series. Then again, maybe I'll just dream about it.

[bkeske]

Originally posted by MrIndy:
'Bird, you mentioned somethin' I think everyone in the U.S. would love to see: dirt road courses. Man, laugh or not, that is something that would draw a crowd.

Maybe I will start a dirt course racing series. Then again, maybe I'll just dream about it.

Havn't you ever seen a World Rally race? Or even a Pro SCCA rally? Most are exactly that. Incredible racing.

edit: And they do draw very good crowds overseas. Yet another form of racing taken very seriously abroad, but almost ignored here in the States...even though they do exist.



[This message has been edited by bkeske (edited 06-22-2001).]

[Scarab16]

Originally posted by bkeske:
Havn't you ever seen a World Rally race? Or even a Pro SCCA rally? Most are exactly that. Incredible racing.

edit: And they do draw very good crowds overseas. Yet another form of racing taken very seriously abroad, but almost ignored here in the States...even though they do exist.

[This message has been edited by bkeske (edited 06-22-2001).]

Good call. And what about the dirt off-road truck and single-seater races, point-to-point, on circuits, and in stadiums?

[Bozo]

What racing tradition is to me is evolution. As new and improved products and venues are established racing teams and engineers will be on the raged edge of development. Pushing things to the limit of the machinery. Ovals have now been pushed to the limits of man. There isn't much left to develop that will enable a person to go beyond the limits of mans physical limits. Therefore, aero packages are created to limit the technology so that a false tech limit is maintained.

Road/Street venues do not have these false limitations placed on them. There are still frontiers of mechanical development that can be obtained. Therefore that is where you will see the most interest from the suppliers, teams, and fans.

Everybody knows that the ability is available to circle most ovals in excess of 250 mph but you will never see it due to safety and human limitations. So, you will not be seeing the best that the race teams can give you at an oval.

I believe that is why CART and is moving to more and more road/street courses. That is also why I like them over ovals. Everyone involved will be doing their best, unhampered by false limitations.


[This message has been edited by Bozo (edited 06-22-2001).]

[MrIndy]

Originally posted by bkeske:
Havn't you ever seen a World Rally race? Or even a Pro SCCA rally? Most are exactly that. Incredible racing.

edit: And they do draw very good crowds overseas. Yet another form of racing taken very seriously abroad, but almost ignored here in the States...even though they do exist.

[This message has been edited by bkeske (edited 06-22-2001).]

I was thinking more in terms of Indy or Champ cars than the rally or Baja racing. Put dirt on the schedule for our guys and see how they can handle it.

Of course, I am still waiting and wanting someone to start a dirt oval series with rear engine cars.

[Scarab16]

Originally posted by MrIndy:
I was thinking more in terms of Indy or Champ cars than the rally or Baja racing. Put dirt on the schedule for our guys and see how they can handle it.

Of course, I am still waiting and wanting someone to start a dirt oval series with rear engine cars.

Wasn't it USAC that aborted the beginning of the rear-engined revolution for sprint cars in the the early 1970s?

[MrIndy]

Yes it was USAC that outlawed the rear-engine sprint and dirt cars. As far as I am concerned, that was a major mistake.

[Old Clunker]

Putting CART and even the IRL cars on dirt would just be sticking another arrow in open wheel racin'.

I feel the guys who move up to the top series of open wheel have progressed past the dirt thing as has the equipment and much of the fan base, and most assuredly any serious support.

If people are inclined to watch dirt racin' there are many different versions of it already in which to watch the favorite hero. Much of this is very good racin' and draws consistant crowds and followings but not in the numbers we need to support our existing product.

I am a great proponent of dirt racin' but certainly not at the cost of dragging our top series down to it. We have seen the results of divisive decisions in open wheel racin' and feel we need to salvage what there is left without anymore diluting of support.

Lots of great racin' coming this weekend to our home town

Old Clunker

[oddlycalm]

Originally posted by MrIndy:
I was thinking more in terms of Indy or Champ cars than the rally or Baja racing. Put dirt on the schedule for our guys and see how they can handle it.

Do you know what a special stage is in World Rally? They run one each day of the event, and it's a wide open flat out sprint.

Back in the late 80's the Group B rally cars were putting out 600hp with all wheel drive. Nigel Mansell drove a Peugot Group B rally car on the track during an F1 weekend in Spain, and posted a time that would have put him mid-pack on the grid for the next days F1 race. He said the car could out accelerate his F1 car, and remember, the F1 cars of the day were producing nearly 1000hp. Is that high enough performance for a dirt racer?

Have you seen the Audi TV spots with Michelle Mouton? She won numerouss World Rallys for Audi in the early 80's driving these supercars. She ran Pikes Peak in 11:25.43 which set an absolute record for all cars in 1985. The good ol' boys with their purpose built single seat hill climbers (what I imagine your idea of a rear engine dirt champcar is) were left in the dust by that "furrin sedan with some housewife driving" I heard folks snickering about. They brought the another car with even more power in 1986 and Bobby Unser ran an 11:02, which again left the single seaters in the dust, but at least it was an Unser and not some French girls mom what done the humiliating...

Audi withdrew from Group B competition deeming it too insane after some fatalities. Some time later Group B was eliminated altogether as being too dangerous for the moutain roads, ice, etc.

My point in the event you missed it is this. If you put such races on the schedule, you need to be aware that there are people in the world that could get on a plane, come over here, and drive circles around "our guys" because it would be a Sunday picnic compared to what they do every event. And if history is our guide, we can expect them miserable furriners to send over a couple housewives to really make everyone feel bad...

Raibird - Thanks for once again reigning in the fantasy lovers with some factual information. You too Scarab.

oc

[Turn13]

Originally posted by oddlycalm:
... Thanks for once again reigning in the fantasy lovers with some factual information...

oc

What the heck is this referring to?

[patrick]

My purpose is bringing up this topic was to point out how CART was abandoning what had been traditional Champ/Indy Car racing since the 1930's: American (as in USA) drivers competing on ovals. I am aware of what USAC did in 1970/71 (dropping the dirt races from the schedule), and I know that their were road course events in the 60's & 70's. I started watching Indy Car races as a kid in the late 60's/early 70's, so I know what it was like.

the point is, as the news about Michigan perfectly illustrates, that CART no longer is an American oval track series, it is now an international, road/street course series with the rare oval thrown in (though as we have seen lately, more ovals are being thrown out). and with fewer races in the US, it is no wonder that CART is having trouble building a fan base in this country.

Robin Miller and the other CART shills/aplogists can say what they want, but CART has begun to put the nails in their own coffin. I doubt CART will last much longer in the US

[Railbird]

That's certainly not the way you spun your opener Patrick, but if that's what you really meant you should have stated it from the go....

"that CART no longer is an American oval track series, it is now an international, road/street course series"

Just exactly when did CART ever promote itself as an American oval series???

An American based series that ran on any form of paved track world wide maybe, but they have never restricted themselves to anything as simplistic as an all oval series..

Jimmy Murphy would have been appalled...

[MrIndy]

BTW, 'Bird nor anyone else here has shown me where a road race was part of the USAC Champ Trail in the '50's or '60's until the first at IRP in '65.

I truly do not remember what road races there were that were a part of the USAC Champ Trail until IRP in '65.

Thanks, it just a question guys don't get uptight now.

[Railbird]

MrIndy,

I always thought 1965 was part of the sixties...