Please.....Lets not start a war with NASCAR fans

**dizzybill** · 08-03-2002 11:14 AM

IRL fans... please lets not stoop to the level of some (not all) of the hardcore CART fans when speaking about NASCAR (or CART for that matter). All it can do is hurt the IRL. Follow Tony George's example. Does he respond to all of the deragatory comments put forth by Chris Pook, Robin Miller etc.? No, he demonstrates that he is above it, and stays focused on building the IRL. I really believe that insulting other series only diminishes the chances for the IRL to gain new fans.

I use myself as an example. I am from Indy, and always went to the Indy 500 more for the party, than for the race. I went to the Cleveland CART race in 1989, but found road coarse racing pretty boring and the party was pretty lame too, so I never attended another open wheel race except for the Indy 500. I really was not a fan of any kind of racing, more just a person who liked to drink lots of beer where large crowds were gathered, and "excitement" was in the air. Basketball and Football had always been the sports that I truly loved. Slowly I began to become disillusioned with professional basketball first, and then college basketball as I started to see some of the same issues creep in that had ruined the NBA for me. This caused me to look for another sport, and in 1996 I actually really discovered the IRL. Being a Indy resident, news of the split was a pretty hot topic in the local paper, and it was a pretty interesting story for me, a non-fan who's allegiance began to gravitate toward the IRL mainly because of my civic pride as an Indy resident, and my dislike for Robin Miller. (Robin was a jerk even before the split.) The more I read about the issues, the more Tony's side of the story seemed to make more sense. Because I wanted the IRL to succeed for Indy's sake, I started actually watching IRL races, and then I was hooked. The "racing" was actually exciting (not every race, but most), and its only gotten better since those early days. About that time I discovered the IndyStar forums, and started to see the bitterness on both sides. Initially I just wanted the IRL to succeed, and I really didn't care about CART, but certainly didn't hope that it went away. The constant criticism and spite directed at the IRL by the CART fans has irritated me to the point that I really hope that CART doesn't answer the bell in 2003. I would never go to a CART race, watch one on television, or in anyway support CART, and that attitude is the result of the constant, and unnecessary BS comments that CART's management, teams, drivers, but mainly fans make about a product that I just happen to enjoy. If not for all of the BS, my attitude towards CART would be one of curiousity at best, and indifference at worst. Given all the spite directed at the IRL, I have grown to hate CART.

My point is that there are lots of fans of other sports entertainment products who are probably a lot like I was. Do we want them to grow to hate the IRL? I hope not. Your comments are appreciated.

**Gus Levy** · 08-03-2002 11:20 AM

Originally posted by dizzybill:
Your comments are appreciated.

Taxicabs are boring.

**manson** · 08-03-2002 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Gus Levy:


Taxicabs are boring.

**StatMan** · 08-03-2002 11:24 AM

What's really annoying is that 90% of statements against NASCAR are just that meaningless phrases.

For example "Taxicabs are boring."

That's about as useful a comment as "Fenderless rear-engined wedge-shaped cars aren't real race cars."

Why some people think it incompatible to like NASCAR and any OW series, I've not figured out. If you want to not like NASCAR, I don't have a problem with that. But some people's attitudes toward NASCAR mirror Robin Miller's attitude toward the IRL.

-StatMan

backstroke · 08-03-2002 11:25 AM

If this is in response to my track record post, I didn't mean to run down NASCAR.
I have respect for NASCAR, and especially it's drivers and crews.

I realize the cars are different- I just don't follow NASCAR as closely, and didn't realize the huge difference in speeds at Indy.

Just hearing Tom Carnegie make the announcement on TNT really got my attention.

I posted it here on the IRL side just because the high speeds are one thing I like about Indy Cars, and maybe NASCAR fans would find it interesting as well.

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: backstroke ]

**dizzybill** · 08-03-2002 11:29 AM

This topic is not in response to any one post, more just hoping that most of us IRL fans can demonstrate a sense of maturity and respect for the entertainment choices of others. Anything less hurts the series that we enjoy.

**manson** · 08-03-2002 11:36 AM

I agree with dizzy, here. My animosity toward NASCAR is founded primarily on jealousy. But it does the IRL no good to **** all over NASCAR fans and their series. These are the fans that we would like to see crossing over from time to time into IRL venues. If we ever want to sell out places like MIS or Texas - or even come close to it - we need these folks.

**PsycoBillyCRX** · 08-03-2002 12:08 PM

I have a nice IRL/NASCAR story to offer you.

I went back to swimming, after a two month absence (a fun filled two months and 4 IRL races!) And of course my swim instructor wanted to know where in the world I had been the past two months. I proceeded to tell her, that I went home for a month, and also saw four auto races, the most recent of which being Michigan.

Alicia (my swim instructor) says, "Ohhhh...I'm so jealous, you were at Michigan?! You know the Brickyard is this weekend, I love NASCAR."

Rather than turn my nose down and bash Nascar, as I do when in the presence of IRL buddies, I proceeded to explain that the kind of racing I like is not Nascar.

Alicia: "oh, so you like that upscale road formula somethin' racing...I like them to go fast and turn left....."

Again, as with most people who group all non-stock car racing into one catagory, I had to educate her, and she got it when I said, "you know the cars in the Indy 500? It's those kind of cars, and it's on an oval track, and they do drive fast and turn left." I then tried the best I could to tell her the differance between CART/IRL/F1....anyway...long story short, she was truly impressed, and said, "Wow, I got an education today."

So I guess the point is that it pays to have an open mind on both ends of the spectrum. Of course I never understood some of the Nascar fans I'm met, who when I tell them that I like Tony Stewart always seem to say, "We're natural enemies then..." Whatever! I guess I'd best just like that Viagra guy instead.

**bob** · 08-03-2002 12:41 PM

I like baseball, football, Nascar, Cart, IRL, sprints, demo derby's, Arena football, tennis, Chevy's, Ford's, Cadillac's, BMW's, Catholic's, Baptists, Tom Petty, Bruce Springsteen, Tony Bennett, Elvis, Smokey Robinson, and even, yikes, to listen to Barry Manilow at times. Oh my, did I say that. Oh well, the point is, can't we just all respect each other and keep our own critiques to our own worlds.
PEACE to all.
Thanks,
Bob

**paper** · 08-03-2002 12:53 PM

for me its time to just stop bashing.. a bit of rivalrous badgering is a sports conversational thing,, but the death to anybody thing is only gonna make what we have felt at one time or another grow larger. so for me .. I dont want any series dead,, I would imagine I watch alot more irl races than I feel folks here watch cart races.. I just want all of it to be ok.. Neither series can provide all of what the country wants in one package , so they both must prosper to fufill all racing taste... peace in racing,, and good luck to all today.......paper

**Doc Austin** · 08-03-2002 02:05 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paper:
"for me its time to just stop bashing.."

After the things you wrote at 7G, I'm willing to let others judge your sincerity.

"a bit of rivalrous badgering is a sports conversational thing,, but the death to anybody thing is only gonna make what we have felt at one time or another grow larger."

Wrong. Without pointing a finger at a specific person, bitter, lost and hapless CART fans will still be bitter, lost and hapless anyway, no matter what the outcome of the "war." These are the same people who had such a good time rubbing our noses in Davey Hamilton's accident. It is better for CART to die so they have nothing to watch. Racing doesn't need that kind of support.

"I would imagine I watch alot more irl races than I feel folks here watch cart races.."

Since I watch every one of them, I would imagine I watch more CART races than you do. I haven't missed one since 1984, not counting the parades I've nodded off in front of.

I wanted CART to prosper. I wanted the IRL to fail miserably, but guess what? I've been called a lemming too many times merely because I noticed last year that the IRL was getting better. Since then, I've watched every injury in the IRL layed at George's feet with considerable joy by some CART fans. All the IRL bashing made me dispise CART, a series I formerly enjoyed. Now I watch them hoping they embarrass themselves, and most particularly, their fans. And they rarely disappoint me.

I switched sides because I didn't want to be part of a group who thought they were better than everybody else because their series and their drivers were "superior." Pretty sad that some people derive their self-worth from whatever series they watch.

"I just want all of it to be ok."

It IS ok. the IRL will prosper as long as the USA stands, and CART will be a sad footnote in the almanac of irrelevant abberitions. Maybe they will even make the 2003 edition. Ding Dong.

But it is too late for CART fans. IRL fans have been called "lemmings" too many times. Too many CART fans gloated when Davey Hamilton got hurt. Too much glee after Atlanta last year.

Too many people exuberated too much glee in relishing the injuries at the speedway this year. Turns out it was the CART/Mercedes developed HANS device that was suspected of breaking driver's vertebrae, but that didn't stop CART fans from saying it was all the IRL's fault.

Too many CART fans have spewed too much venom for IRL fans to forget.

"for me its time to just stop bashing.."

Sure. As soon as CART is gone. Can't wait for the peace that will bring. Peace means that CART must die!

"peace in racing,"

peace, baby!

**KevMcNJ** · 08-03-2002 02:17 PM

That Viagra guy. yer killing me. too funny!Got no beef with NASCAR fans, heck I was one for a loong time. Got no beef with Cart either. I dont think its interesting racing thru a town, but whatever trips your trigger.
What I do have a problem with is nit-wits turning a name (NASCAR) into a noun. As in "I'd love to drive a NASCAR."
Or "come see the Home Depot NASCAR this Friday at..." Just shows a total lack of knowledge of the game IMO.
Im done being grouchy, I'll leave now.
Y'all getting sick of me yet?

**Richard Kimble** · 08-03-2002 03:43 PM

An F1 fan 1st,IRL second and NASCAR third but I am a fan and have been for years.

Variety is the spice of life!

**paper** · 08-03-2002 04:26 PM

I have a shirt davey hamilton gave me at a mall where we talked for an hour about the irl and its goals,, I certainly never reveled in his situation but somehow as a cart fan I guess I am responsible in your eyes doc.. I wish no harm or failure on anyone.. But as I watch you do book reports reveling in chasing my every word I only hope your angst subsides. Im curiuos tho if you can answer,, with the influx of much that was cart being embraced by the irl, what is the one cart factor that so infuriates you? and is it that important to sound as incensed as you seem. I do not wish to anger you at all ,, but wonder other than your strong desire for the death of cart,, is there anything you can accept that offers the road racing cart does to its fans in those cars. Or is it you will never accept anything but all of it gone... paper

**dizzybill** · 08-03-2002 05:19 PM

I'm starting to think I shouldn't have started this topic.

Paper, I have nothing against those who love road racing, and I hope those fans find all of the racing to follow that they can handle. Just leave the IRL alone. Don't call it second rate, don't call IRL drivers wankers, don't call IRL fans idiots, escpecially not on an IRL forum. You are very diplomatic, but many other CART fans are very rude on these forums. (I know some IRL fans are probably guilty too.) I don't want CART to die because I hate road racing, I just want obnoxious CART fans to go away. I want Chris Pook to stop telling lies. I want Robin Miller to be introduced to a very large cell mate named Bubba. I just want to be able to come to an IRL forum to get more information about my favorite sport without wading through a bunch of BS. If you can help Thanks. I will return the favor by not posting on any CART boards, or any BS about CART on this board.

Thanks.

**Grover** · 08-03-2002 05:26 PM

Barry Manilow???!!?!?!?!!

**paper** · 08-03-2002 05:48 PM

diz you got it,, we all would better off with the hate obnoxious factor lowered ,, i will help by not posting here as it is obvious many have at some time read my positions and have much of it out of the context.. or misconstrued in a general pool of 'all cart fans are the same,, no need to reply ,,,,, I wish all well and much success to your series.... paper

**bob** · 08-03-2002 06:36 PM

Sorry Grover, I apologize that I've disrespected our Grover heritage...if it may help, I worked a convention center gig BM did, it actually was a decent production, but I should've never admitted it.

I guess I'd better put that personality in the closet and remember that I still wish I had the money to go see Aerosmith this summer. Now, that's better...the train's a rollin' now.

**Micki** · 08-03-2002 06:47 PM

Originally posted by paper:
I would imagine I watch alot more irl races than I feel folks here watch cart races..

I have missed ONE CART race this year. Even before I had SPEED we would go to a local bar called BUD's in Tinley Park and spend way to much money on drinks and watch the CART races.

I watch darn near all NASCAR races. I don't enjoy any of them as much as the IRL, but I do enjoy them. I am finding it a lot harder to enjoy CART races this year because the aero package actually seems to PREVENT passing.

I have very good friends who are NASCAR fans, and one of which HATES Tony Stewart, vehemently, it boggles my mind.

One of my CART fan friends always say's "I watched the race, it was very good, but there didn't seem to be very many people there". I suffer these things, and know if he keeps watching we'll get him.

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: starrcam ]

**Doc Austin** · 08-03-2002 06:54 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paper:
"I certainly never reveled in his situation but somehow as a cart fan I guess I am responsible in your eyes doc.. "

I prefaced my entire post by saying I was pointing fingers at no one in particular, so you have completely mischaracterized my statement. Lame and dishonorable.

"I'm curiuos tho if you can answer,, with the influx of much that was cart being embraced by the irl, what is the one cart factor that so infuriates you?"

It's fans. Those who act like the IRL has no right to exist. Those who act like IRL fans are stupid. Those who cry peace when they are getting their tail whipped in a fight they started. You don't see IRL fans trolling the CART forum, but the CART trolls sure come here.

"and is it that important to sound as incensed as you seem."

Why am I important? Sounds like you don't have much of an argument if this has to be about me.

"I do not wish to anger you at all ,, but wonder other than your strong desire for the death of cart,, is there anything..."

No. CART must, and will die.

**nitrofan** · 08-03-2002 06:57 PM

I agree we should be nice to cart. they are part of the open wheel family.

even though I used to go by a not so nice anticart handle on another board

but nascar? the way their fans 'love' or 'hate' any driver for no particular reason reminds me of another staged fiasco known as world wrestling.

if that's an insult oh well . if the shoe fits.....

I go out of my way in dealing with people to educate them about IRL racing.

But I do not hesitate to tell them how much better the IRL is.

no apologies required. it is better.

**Eagle104** · 08-03-2002 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Doc Austin:
No. CART must, and will die.

I really appreciate that, "Doc"...thanks.

**nitrofan** · 08-03-2002 06:59 PM

and I 've bought barry manilow records, and aerosmith, but I'll be saving my concert money for RUSH this year.

**Indyracin** · 08-03-2002 07:20 PM

I like all forms of racing.

**rocket** · 08-03-2002 07:47 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Doc Austin:

Originally posted by paper:
"for me its time to just stop bashing.."

After the things you wrote at 7G, I'm willing to let others judge your sincerity.

"a bit of rivalrous badgering is a sports conversational thing,, but the death to anybody thing is only gonna make what we have felt at one time or another grow larger."

Wrong. Without pointing a finger at a specific person, bitter, lost and hapless CART fans will still be bitter, lost and hapless anyway, no matter what the outcome of the "war." These are the same people who had such a good time rubbing our noses in Davey Hamilton's accident. It is better for CART to die so they have nothing to watch. Racing doesn't need that kind of support.

"I would imagine I watch alot more irl races than I feel folks here watch cart races.."

Since I watch every one of them, I would imagine I watch more CART races than you do. I haven't missed one since 1984, not counting the parades I've nodded off in front of.

I wanted CART to prosper. I wanted the IRL to fail miserably, but guess what? I've been called a lemming too many times merely because I noticed last year that the IRL was getting better. Since then, I've watched every injury in the IRL layed at George's feet with considerable joy by some CART fans. All the IRL bashing made me dispise CART, a series I formerly enjoyed. Now I watch them hoping they embarrass themselves, and most particularly, their fans. And they rarely disappoint me.

I switched sides because I didn't want to be part of a group who thought they were better than everybody else because their series and their drivers were "superior." Pretty sad that some people derive their self-worth from whatever series they watch.

"I just want all of it to be ok."

It IS ok. the IRL will prosper as long as the USA stands, and CART will be a sad footnote in the almanac of irrelevant abberitions. Maybe they will even make the 2003 edition. Ding Dong.

But it is too late for CART fans. IRL fans have been called "lemmings" too many times. Too many CART fans gloated when Davey Hamilton got hurt. Too much glee after Atlanta last year.

Too many people exuberated too much glee in relishing the injuries at the speedway this year. Turns out it was the CART/Mercedes developed HANS device that was suspected of breaking driver's vertebrae, but that didn't stop CART fans from saying it was all the IRL's fault.

Too many CART fans have spewed too much venom for IRL fans to forget.

"for me its time to just stop bashing.."

Sure. As soon as CART is gone. Can't wait for the peace that will bring. Peace means that CART must die!

"peace in racing,"

peace, baby!

Seems to me like you have become what you despise most.
I do prefer road racing, but that doesn't mean I don't watch allot of the IRL races. Comments like this though, will also drive away many bordeline IRL fans, just like the hardline CART fans did to you.

**PHJIndy** · 08-03-2002 10:14 PM

Back on topic. I used to be a big NASCAR fan. I even took days off from work and attended their practices here prior to them coming here for the BY. It has become more of a cartoon series, IMHO. I don't go out of my way to express this opinion to my NASCAR fans or expecially on a NASCAR board. It's just MY opinion and my personal preference. I wish that NASCAR was less like it is today and more of what it was 10 years ago and before.

If you are a NASCAR fan or an F1 fan or a CART fan, enjoy your choice of racing series. But please don't come here, an IRL site, and tell me how superior your series preference is, or how inferior my preference is! I just don't want to hear it!

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: PHJIndy ]

**Roadrage** · 08-04-2002 09:22 AM

Originally posted by nitrofan:
I'll be saving my concert money for RUSH this year.

I'll be seeing them this Friday in Indy!

**BADGER** · 08-04-2002 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Doc Austin:
Those who act like IRL fans are stupid.

Is this an admission?

Glad to see a moderator saw fit to delete my earlier post, only the Lord knows how much lower this topic could have sunk with my statements. Here is a suggestion to keeping a topic from becoming a flame war. The next time someone wants to make amends or call a truce with NASCAR, don't spend three longwinded paragraphs slamming CART. Apparently the moderator was fooled yet again by this slight of hand technique.

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: BADGER ]