Hey Rev

[hdolan]

""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. . ." (NIV emphasis mine)"

And if I fulfill the love between me and my wife do I do away with the vows Rev...you guys never cease to amaze me...you follow the laws of man and the Roman church, Sunday is a good example, and yet, believe you follow The Christ...fascinating...I suppose you celebrate Easter too...Jeremiah tells us not to...and Xmas...celebrate the death...

I reposted so it wouldn't get lost...

[rev-ed]

Originally posted by hdolan:
And if I fulfill the love between me and my wife do I do away with the vows Rev...

No, Howard. Read the verse again. It didn't say that YOU fulfill the law, it said that JESUS fulfilled the law. I thought you agreed with what Jesus had to say. . .

you guys never cease to amaze me...you follow the laws of man and the Roman church, Sunday is a good example, and yet, believe you follow The Christ...fascinating...I suppose you celebrate Easter too...Jeremiah tells us not to...and Xmas...celebrate the death...

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink,, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Colossians 2:16-17 (NIV).

That should be pretty self-explanatory, Howard.

Yes, I celebrate Easter. I do it every Sunday. I celebrate the victory of Jesus Christ over the cross. That's why Christians celebrate The Lord's Day -- Sunday. It is done in memory of the Risen Lord.

And no, it's not done because of the Roman church. The early believers met on the first day of the week to commemorate the Resurrection long before the first Christian ever made it to Rome.

Please explain where Jeremiah tells us not to celebrate Easter. . . or Christmas. . .

[hdolan]

"That's why Christians celebrate The Lord's Day -- Sunday. It is done in memory of the Risen Lord.

And no, it's not done because of the Roman church. The early believers met on the first day of the week to commemorate the Resurrection long before the first Christian ever made it to Rome."


No, it's celebrated to worship the Sun...SUN DAY...

Read Jer. 7: 17-18 and Jer 10: 1-4

They both relate to ancient pagan rituals of Osiris, and Isis or Ishtar...

BTW: If there ias a "Lord's Day" it is the Sabbath,the 7th day of the week...certainly it has nothing to do with the first day of the week, or a da celebrated by pagans, a day to worship the Sun...as in Easter sunrise services..surely you see that...if the 6th commandment is no longer valid, then the rest are nothing but words...

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: hdolan ]

[rev-ed]

Originally posted by hdolan:
[QB]No, it's celebrated to worship the Sun...SUN DAY...

Howard, that's a name. The early Christians spoke Aramean, Hebrew and maybe a little Greek. They didn't use the Julian calendar at that point. The Jewish titles for days of the week would be what they went by.

Read Jer. 7: 17-18 and Jer 10: 1-4

They both relate to ancient pagan rituals of Osiris, and Isis or Ishtar...

BTW: If there ias a "Lord's Day" it is the Sabbath,the 7th day of the week...certainly it has nothing to do with the first day of the week, or a da celebrated by pagans, a day to worship the Sun...as in Easter sunrise services..surely you see that...

Thanks for the specific passages,Howard. However, your point (at least I'm assuming this is your point) about putting a "religious holiday" on the day of a pagan celebration is incorrect. Yes, I've heard the Easter arguments and the Christmas arguments -- from the Jehovah's Witnesses, mostly. But God created all days and can sanctify any day. Any Biblical reference like the ones you posted, when read in context, are made against participating in a festival to another God, not to worshipping God on the day of a pagan festival. A cult can claim a day as their own, but they can't take it away from God.

The argument for Sunday is still addressed in Colossians 2:16-17. But the pattern for life was set about in Genesis -- 6 days work, 1 day rest. Let me tell you, follow a pastor around on Sunday and see if it is his day of rest. My Sabbath rest often comes on the traditional Sabbath. Sometimes it's on Monday. Occasionally on a Thursday (but not this week!) We set aside one day a week to honor God.

if the 6th commandment is no longer valid, then the rest are nothing but words...

I'll assume that's a typo, as I don't think we were talking about murder, but the 4th Commandment and the Sabbath. See above.

[hdolan]

"I'll assume that's a typo, as I don't think we were talking about murder, but the 4th Commandment and the Sabbath. See above. "

Yes, thank you...however, the law doesn't say just any day, it's quite specific and Jesus said that he did not come to change the law...I understand Sun Day...but the first day of the week has been the day set aside by pagans as far back as one cares to go...

The Roman church changed the the rules, you know it and I know it...neither Easter or Xmas has anything to do with Jesus, and they are extensions of pagan holidays, holidays that beleivers are told not to recognize...

The tree covered with gold and silver is one that was used to determine the lengthening of the days after the Winter Solstice...that usually is seen about three days after the solstice, the 25th...

the cakes made to the queen of heaven, a name sometimes used for Mary, are seen in the hot cross buns made at Easter time...and of course, we all know about those statues...Easter sunrise services become nothing more than an extension of Sun worship...

You fall back on the same non-evidence that I've heard many times...you tell me what Paul did, yet, you cannot cite evidence that Jesus made these changes or said that any day was OK...

I'm amused by the very name Protestant...
after all, most groups follow the lead of the very organization Luther protested, the Roman Church...the day of worship, the holidays etc...

BTW, very early on the first day of the week (John 20: 1) was quite probably what we call Saturday night...days were counted sundown to sundown as you well know...emasculating any argument about the resurrection being the reason Sunday became the day of worship...

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: hdolan ]

[rev-ed]

Thanks for a reasoned response, Howard.

You won't accept my explanations no matter how long we do this. I accept the Bible as Truth -- all of it. Obviously, you do not. I accept the Epistles of Paul as being "God-breathed" -- that is inspired by the Holy Spirit, God Himself. If God the Spirit inspired it's writing, then it cannot differ from the will of Jesus Christ and thus also the will of God the Father. Since you do not accept this, we're at an impasse.

Perhaps all this extends from a problem with the "Roman Church," I don't know. Hey, I've got a lot of problems with the Roman Church, but that doesn't discount anything done or written post-resurrection. I'm not trying to be psychoanalytical or anything, but it seems that you discount much of what Catholicism did early in it's life. I would agree with you on a few of those points, but certainly not all. Rome didn't run things for the first 300-400 years. . . the time when the major tenets of Christianity were formed and defended.

I have no problem with Christians worshipping on Saturday. However to prohibit Sunday worship goes against what Scripture has to say. No, Jesus did not abolish the Law, he fulfilled it. No self-respecting Jew would have changed his day of worship unless there was a pivotal event from God to instigate it, yet they did. . . without waiting for Roman approval or without worshipping the sun, just the SON.

Christmas and Easter are not "extensions of pagan holidays" but are (for lack of a better term) competing holidays. Some of the customs of those pagan festivals have been "Christianized" and given new meanings. Christmas trees are not used to honor a pagan god, but to honor the gift of the One True God. Hot cross buns are not cakes made to the queen of heaven, but reminders of the gift of the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. Don't get so caught up in historical foundations that you miss present beliefs.

BTW - Jesus himself said third day -- and as Jewish thinking would dictate that counts Friday as the first day, Saturday as the second, Sunday would have to be the third. Thus Jesus and the rest of Scripture holds that Jesus rose early in the morning of the first day. Good try though, but the evidence says otherwise.

[Pick]

Not that Rev needs the help in this discussion, but I looked it up out of my own curiosity using a handy NIV Bible search page.....

Mathew 28:1, Mark 16:9, Luke 24:1, John 20:1, John 20:19, Acts 20:7, and 1 Corinthians 16:2 ALL make reference to the first day of the week, either in gathering together for some reason or as the day Christ arose.

As a matter of fact, 3 of the four gospels make reference to going to the empty tomb at about sunrise on the first day. Hence a sunrise service on Easter Sunday. (why doesn't that seem like much of a stretch to me?)

[hdolan]

"BTW - Jesus himself said third day -- and as Jewish thinking would dictate that counts Friday as the first day, Saturday as the second, Sunday would have to be the third. Thus Jesus and the rest of Scripture holds that Jesus rose early in the morning of the first day. Good try though, but the evidence says otherwise. "

How long was Jonah in the belly of the great fish...3 days AND 3 nights...there is no way that Jesus could have killed on Friday and fulfilled that prophecy of 3 days and 3 nights...

Xmas and Easter certainly ARE pagan holidays..why would God want his followers to "borrow" pagan holidays...

The first day mentionings have nothing to do with establishing a new sabbath...the fulfilling of the law does not mean doing away with it...I fulfill the laws of our society by obeying them, not violating them...

Exodus 20: 8 - Remember the sabbath day... it does not say remember a sabbath day...it says THE sabbath day...

"As a matter of fact, 3 of the four gospels make reference to going to the empty tomb at about sunrise on the first day. Hence a sunrise service on Easter Sunday. (why doesn't that seem like much of a stretch to me?)"

Very early on the first day of the week would be immediately after sundown on te sabbath...

Again, if you, or anyone can show me where Jesus did away with the Ten Commandments or any one of them I'll happily say that I'm wrong...

I'm glad, possibly jealous of those who are so sure that the Bible, and only the Bible is the word of God...my years and investigations into other faiths, beliefs, mythologies have made it very difficult for me to make such a claim...I don't know, and I suspect nobody here knows either...

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: hdolan ]

[Pick]

Ok Howard, here is Mark 16:2 from a few different translations, just to make sure one or more isn't flawed.

New International Version (NIV)
Mark 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb

King James Version (KJV)
Mark 16:2
And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

New King James Version (NKJV)
Mark 16:2
Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Mark 16:2
And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Now, does that sound like late Saturday night to you? As far as Easter and Christmas being extensions of pagan holidays...it sounds to me like YOU are clinging awfully tightly to those pagan holidays that I've never heard of. (except in similar arguments with Jehovah's Witnesses........)

Howard, do you cling to the rest of the laws of Moses or just the 10 Commandments? If Jesus released you (us) from one set, why then would his words not apply to the others as well.

Read Mark 7:1-20. Mark 2:23-3:5 Mark 12:28-

(sorry for all of the references being in Mark, I only had time to skim through one book during break.....I'll check the rest later if you wish.)

I gotta get some work done...I'm sure I've confused Rev's argument enough for now. (Sorry Ed!)

[hdolan]

"Now, does that sound like late Saturday night to you? As far as Easter and Christmas being extensions of pagan holidays...it sounds to me like YOU are clinging awfully tightly to those pagan holidays that I've never heard of. (except in similar arguments with Jehovah's Witnesses........)"

Read how the days were reckoned, sundown to sundown...I'm not surprised you've never heard of those pagan holidays, most haven't

"Howard, do you cling to the rest of the laws of Moses or just the 10 Commandments? If Jesus released you (us) from one set, why then would his words not apply to the others as well."

The 10 Commandments are presented as the Law of God, not Moses, the others you speak of are the Levitical laws...big difference...
read what Jesus said about the Law of God...

[Pick]

How the days were reckoned makes no difference.....He arose sometime around sunrise on the 1st day of the week. Period.

How can I possibly be worshiping a pagan god or pagan ritual I have never heard of? Isn't the act of worship and open act of acknowledgement, awe, reverence, love, etc.??? You claim Easter is a celebration of a pagan god or ritual, yet I know nothing of the pagan god or ritual. How then can I possibly be worshiping whatever it is?

I seem to remember reading a scripture where Jesus says something to the effect that "Whenever two or more are gathered in My name, there I am also".......any time, any place, "whenever"! I assure you that on Easter Sunday, and every Sunday, there are two or more of us gathered in His name. He tells me that He is there also, that is good enough for me.

[rev-ed]

Howard - Something basic that I'm sure you know, but seem to have overlooked. . .

At the time of Christ, what we know today as the Old Testament is called by the Jews, "The Law and the Prophets" referring to what was contained inside. Now certainly there was more in the OT than that (psalms, wisdom literature, narrative. . .) but that was what it was called.

Now when Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, he meant that He fulfilled all that the OT had looked forward to. He made unnecessary blood sacrifice and ceremonial washings and the like. When you talk about "fulfilling the laws" you are talking about something different. You are simply obeying the laws. You are fulfilling the requirements of the laws. But you are not fulfilling the laws.

Thus, ceremonial laws were done away with by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are under no obligation to sacrifice bulls, goats, doves or anything else. Instead we sacrifice our lives in honor of the sacrifice which was made for us. We are still required to keep the moral laws which God has written on our hearts -- conscience if you'd rather. So if you want to know where Jesus did away with the requirement to worship on the Sabbath, there it is. Note, though, that Jesus did not do away with the concept of a day of rest.

As far as the holiday celebrations go, you seem not to be able to see the point. If "the church" celebrates the birth of Christ around the time of a pagan festival, it does not mean that it is celebrating the pagan festival.

If I had been born one day earlier, I would have been born on the 20th anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor. By your logic, I could not celebrate my birthday, I would merely be memorializing the attack and the people who died there every Dec. 7th.

Let's see, what else. . .

Oh yeah, 3 days and 3 nights and the Sign of Jonah. What we are working with here is a Jewish figure of speech. Again, a Jew would reckon any part of a day as a complete day -- meaning a day and a night. I would refer you to some ancient Jewish studies for details, but I don't have any titles handy. You might have one or two though, as I know your library is large.

Anyway, Friday, Saturday and Sunday -- to the Jewish mind -- would constitute what he would call 3 days and 3 nights. Perhaps they weren't as hung up on time as we are today. . .

[StatMan]

Christmas and Easter are holidays celebrating respectively, the birth and resurrection of Christ. We don't really know what day of the year those actually happened on, so choosing a specific day is someone random. Christmas and Easter were chosen to be celebrated on the same days as pagan feasts (probably to deter Christians from attending the pagan celebrations). That doesn't mean they were the same as the pagan feasts.

It is true that the Christmas and Easter traditions are becominging more and more secular. Just because most people think Easter is a holiday to commemorate springtime and for kids to get candy from the Easter Bunny, doesn't mean that it is impossible for anyone to celebrate Easter as the Ressurection of Christ.

As for the disparity in the dates of Easter. Yes, we now follow the Roman date set for Easter. I fail to see how that means our celebration is not of God since humna's chose the date. We had to use some human's way of determining the date or we would not have a date to use at all. The Jewish Purim holiday is not one of the feast's given in the Torah by God. That doesn't mean Jews disobey God by celebrating Purim.

-StatMan

[nitrofan]

actually i think it's because they couldn't get the romans to acknowledge the christian holidays, so they celebrated when they could.

[Brian Hall]

I think if I do my celebrating of Easter while the Pagans are having a drunken party, it just might be a whole lot safer. While most were willing to hang on a cross, the early Christians were running around ASKING to be martyr's. If caught, they would not deny Jesus, but they weren't calling the soldiers over to tell on themselves.

We could sit here for YEARS debating minor inconsistencies of time in the bible. But to do that misses the POINT.

Heck, we worked on this stuff a lot at my Catholic High School. Went through nearly every religion on the planet so we understood where others were coming from. And I can't think of one time we ever said the beliefs of others religions were wrong. Just different. (Though people that worship the sun ARE wrong IMO, who am I to decide that). All in all theology was kinda fun.

BTW, this is off the subject, but the correct religion is MORMON (See southpark movie).

[nitrofan]

I thought it was Marman.

[Pick]

Isn't Marmon a truck?

[hdolan]

Just a thought, ever wonder why easter is symbolic with bunnies and eggs...think about it...

Rev, I'm sure you are very comitted to your beliefs, but, your attempts to dispose of my points are weak...the fulfillment argument is extremely so...why would God give laws that would be changed...wouldn't that be unfair...God is constant or he/she is not God...

nitro is close...the Roman church simply inserted the name of Jesus into the pagan holidays to get along...and you know that Rev...I think

[Turn13]

Maybe pagans claimed those days, and God's taking them back. I'm not overly-studied in these issues, but hdolan your argument here fails to presuade me because you have no evidence of God instructing me to eat chocolate bunnies or decorate a tannenbaum.

Men do lots of things. I could argue that how man handles his freewill on high holy days is instructional and uplifting.

[hdolan]

"Maybe pagans claimed those days, and God's taking them back. I'm not overly-studied in these issues, but hdolan your argument here fails to presuade me because you have no evidence of God instructing me to eat chocolate bunnies or decorate a tannenbaum"

Not attempting to persuade you, nor anyone else of anything. The facts are available in any version of the Bible. Holidays such as Easter, which of course is nothing more than a fertility ritual (bunnies and eggs), and Xmas which is the celebration of the rebirth of the sun are holidays not to be celebrated by those who believe in the God of the Bible.

The same goes for days of worship, beads, statues and various other so-called Christian celebrations. Prayers to statues are prayers to statues, period. Confession to a man is useless. Standing on a hillside as the sun rises on Easter is not Christian, period. Any source book will demonstrate the facts of the matter.

This excercise is simply one of debate. I enjoy it. I have no subjective and or emotional link to it. I do, however, have enough sense to understand that it is bothersome to most; to the point they refuse to investigate the subjects. Interesting...

Finally. It seems to me that God who would change the rules mid-stream is not a God of consistency. The Law is a as valid today, according to scripture, as it was in Eden.

[rev-ed]

Originally posted by hdolan:
<STRONG>Just a thought, ever wonder why easter is symbolic with bunnies and eggs...think about it...</STRONG>

Well, the Easter egg is a symbol of new life, just like the new life found in Jesus Christ. That's the way it's been at my house. Bunnies I was never into too much. . .
Yeah, I'm sure that pagan used these symbols to mean something different. But it's not the symbol, it's the meaning you pour into it. A cross around the neck of Madonna doesn't make her a faithful Christian. For many people, an egg is the symbol of breakfast.

<STRONG> nitro is close...the Roman church simply inserted the name of Jesus into the pagan holidays to get along...and you know that Rev...I think</STRONG>

Don't try to read my mind, Howard.
Christians set up competing festivals, Christianizing many symbols in the process. Since people traditionally didn't work at festival time, it became a great evangelical tool. Is there a temptation to water down the meaning of the festival, sure. But I see no indication that the teachings of Christianity were changed simply to allow the church to "fit in."

Man does strange things to celebrate. A noble act of good man has now become a jolly man who gives you stuff every December. Commercialism invades most everything these days -- from Easter to Halloween. I hate that just as much as you do, if not more. But again, I see no evidence that the Christian faith has been doctrinally diluted by any of the arguments you've brought up here. I've been through these things many times, as I've wrestled with them myself at one time or another. Much of this argument is straight out of the Watchtower Society, except that the Jehovah's Witnesses have a couple of other weak arguments thrown in the mix.

<STRONG>Rev, I'm sure you are very comitted to your beliefs, but, your attempts to dispose of my points are weak...the fulfillment argument is extremely so...why would God give laws that would be changed...wouldn't that be unfair...God is constant or he/she is not God...</STRONG>

Howard, again, the laws were not changed, they were fulfilled. Everything that was given to Israel in the OT looked forward to the fulfillment in Jesus Christ. The blood of a bull didn't atone for sin, it was just a temporary substitute for the ultimate sacrifice of Christ which would (and does) atone for sin. The reason we don't perform animal sacrifice today is because the cross has made that unnecessary. You seem to harp on the Sabbath argument, but you never have suggested that I should be slaughtering livestock every Saturday. Why is one any different from the other?

It's funny that you should consider my arguments weak, because that's how yours appear to me. You've taken your own assumption and accepted it as fact.

That's what our difference boils down to, Howard. I can't come up with another explanation for you because all I have is the truth. I can't make up another truth to please you. I am not foolish enough to think that my opinion means anything to anyone in the grand scheme of things. My opinion is only that -- opinion. Your opinion, Howard, is only that -- opinion. I think you would agree with me there. (not trying to read your mind )

The thing is that our opinions are worthless in light of objective truth. All evidence that I have seen shows me that objective truth is found in the Bible -- both Old and New Testament. 66 books worth of truth. My opinion doesn't make them true. Truth makes them true.

Howard, you on the other hand, have only subjective truth. You believe what sounds good or what makes sense to you. You are a very well read man, and you seem to have taken nuggets from many different teachings as what you accept -- for now. I understand your rationale, yet in the end you have no objective truth -- only opinion.

A person with only subjective truth is left to wonder and to doubt. With all the reading you've done, you certainly must find it interesting to wonder. That's great. But how do you decide what is true? Do you limit your truth to the capacity of your own mind?

I know you believe in God, Howard. God of some kind, anyway. And you've pointed out that if God is God, then He/She doesn't change, but is constant. But you've also indirectly argued that any one teaching doesn't contain the truth about God and creation. Does God care so little for us that He/She would not reveal something of Himself/Herself to us? Enough so that we knew what God expected?

You were blatantly honest earlier when you stated a possible jealousy of those who believe the Bible to be true. You mentioned that you wished you could believe that. It seems that all you lack is faith. Faith that the humanists and the scientists and everybody else whose arguments you've selectively chosen as fact are wrong and the Bible is correct. Faith that God is more than you can comprehend with your own mind. It's all a decision. That's free will.

Howard, as I've told many people, I love you like a brother. And I know that I can never convince you to give up your beliefs. That's not my purpose anyway. But I do lay out the facts as I know them and present them to you and to many others, and provide another opporutnity for the Holy Spirit to work on your heart. You, of course, are free to accept or to reject. That's free will.

[hdolan]

"It's funny that you should consider my arguments weak, because that's how yours appear to me. You've taken your own assumption and accepted it as fact."

No assumptions here...I read the book...I merely quoted what it says...the Law is as valid today as it was in Eden...Jesus made no bones about that...

The holiday thing is obvious...I forgot Halloween, which, of course, is a whole diferent thing....

To have faith is important...however, to follow the tenents of men and ignore the law of God, as defined in the Bible, is foolish too me...kind of like a "living" Constitution...my opinion...

The mumbo-jumbo used in many churches in not umlike the abracadabra schtick used by evolutionists in their efforts to save a fairy tale for grown ups...

Tell me Rev...what happened to all the Native Americans who died and never heard of Jesus...no trick here, just would like to see your opinion...

[rev-ed]

No opinion, Howard. You've read the book, right? Romans. (I know, it's Paul)

Romans 1:20 - "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

I would imagine you'd agree here -- creation screams out that there is a God. Too much order in the universe to have happened by accident.

Romans 1:21-25 - "For although they knew God. . ." (interesting, huh? They knew God.) ". . .they neither glorified him as God norgave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wide, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

"Therefore God fave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to eexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator -- who is forever praised. Amen."

It seems that those who "knew God" rejected Him in favor of a lie.

Romans 2:14-15 - "(Indeed, when Gentile, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they shoe that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts, now accusing, now even defending them.)"

The law is written on the hearts of everyone -- even those American Indians. They know in their heart what is right and what is wrong.

John 3:16-21 - "FOr God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear thta his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

And so those who live by the light comes into the light. Light has been given to everyone, and we have free will to reject or to accept. If we accept what light has been given, more light is given.

The Bible tells us that no one is without excuse. It also says that most everyone rejects the light of God so that they can revert to their evil ways.

I can't give you opinion here, Howard. I have been told not to judge the eternal fate of others because I don't know their hearts. I can criticize what they do or teach or profess, but it is God alone who judges. Using that principle, I would imagine that the majority of the American Indians of the 1500's were like the majority of everybody else -- loving darkness instead of light. But I do hold out hope that some responded to the light they were given through creation and conscience and were given salvation through the grace of God and through Jesus Christ in some form or another. I believe that missionaries brought more light to these people. But the decision was up to them. Worship creation or worship the Creator.

It is not up to God to save anybody -- it is only through His grace that any of us are saved. But the Bible also tells us that God does not want anybody to be lost. He is fair. At the judgment seat of God we will see that what God decides is just. But until then, we won't know everything about what he decides.

Sorry, that's the best I can give you. God doesn't let me in on everything. . .

As far as the law being the same from Eden, you skipped over the animal sacrifice. Should I be doing that too?

[StatMan]

hdolan, you are confusing me a bit. You keep tossing around a few pet phrases: "God changed the law", "Xmas is a pagan holiday." But whenever anyone tries to present evidence that God didn't change the law or that Xmas celebrates Jesus' birth, you repeat your same phrases again.

Originally posted by hdolan:
<STRONG>No assumptions here...I read the book...I merely quoted what it says...the Law is as valid today as it was in Eden...Jesus made no bones about that...[/b]

I don't think rev has, either. No one here is saying God changed the rules on us. I'm not sure why you keep brining that up. It was known to the Jews of the OT that God would bring a Savior. That's why they were so eager to see the Messiah come. To the Christian, Jesus was that Messiah. In other words, God made a promise, and kept that promise (fulfilled it) through Jesus. How is that changing the rules?

[qb]To have faith is important...however, to follow the tenents of men and ignore the law of God, as defined in the Bible...</STRONG>

How is celebrating Jesus' birth or ressurection ignoring God's law? Just because God didn't specifically say "Celebrate this holiday", doesn't mean it's wrong to do so. It makes to difference how many people in the past used Dec. 25th to worship the sun. It makes no difference how many people today use it to buy presents and wait for Santa. I use it to celebrate the birth of Jesus. No, Jesus was probably not born on that date. I think God will understand that I don't have the foggiest idea of the actual date.

-StatMan

[hdolan]

"hdolan, you are confusing me a bit. You keep tossing around a few pet phrases: "God changed the law", "Xmas is a pagan holiday." But whenever anyone tries to present evidence that God didn't change the law or that Xmas celebrates Jesus' birth, you repeat your same phrases again."

Please point out where I've stated God changed the law, no way, no where, at no time have I said this....

As a matter of fact, that is exactly what the good Rev is arguing...that the Law is no longer valid, becuase of Jesus...that cannot be found in the teachings of Jesus...

PS to Rev:

You know I'm talking about the Law in the Ark of Covenant, not the Levitical Law...you and I know the difference...I suspect few others around here do...

[ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: hdolan ]

[Pick]

Howard, If you live only by the law, you are completely ignoring the FACT that none of us are perfect, and that NONE of us deserve eternal life. Without grace, we don't have a prayer. Literaly.

We are instructed to live our life as Jesus did, are we not?

Didn't Jesus violate the "law" pertaining to the sabbath? (I'll let you look it up.) Was Jesus God's son? Was he the perfect sacrifice, without blemish? Isn't he the finest example any of us can ever hope to emulate? (hint: according to scripture, the answer to all of those is a resounding YES.)

I will ignore your futile attempts to tell me that I am worshiping the sun, or some fertility god merely by the date and/or time in which I choose to gather with other believers. Throw away your calendar that lists every pagan holiday that ever existed, and concentrate ONLY on the truth. Think about it. You are combining the works of man, with the inspired works of God. THAT is a rather questionable (at best) combination.

If you didn't have a calendar that listed the pagan holidays you cling to so tightly, would the date of Easter or Christmas matter?

Does it say in scripture that we are not to celebrate the birth, death, and resurection of Jesus Christ specifically? No Howard, we are not talking about pagan celebrations, we are talking specifically about the birth, death, and resurection of Jesus Christ now. (without a calendar!) Scripture already tells us (very clearly) that his resurrection was discovered early in the morning of the first day of the week. Does it matter who's calendar we use to determine the "first day of the week"? (look at a French calendar sometime.......MONDAY is the first day of the week, and SUNDAY is the seventh.) I'd hate to think God is concerned with which country printed the calendar.

Also, how can you believe the writings of one book of the Bible without the others? If you choose only the old testament, then you reject the very existance of Jesus Christ. In which case, you are bound by the very laws of Leviticus that you admit were abolished. (you only adhere to God's laws, right?)

You don't seem to accept the writings of Paul.......are you saying that the new testament is a hodge podge of literary works, some fact, some fiction? Some inspired, some not? How do you differentiate between the two?

[TxIndyFan]

I celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus- Easter Sunday and every other Sunday. I do not celebrate anything remotely related to the spring equinox, the new moon, or the so-called easter bunny. The early Christians who celebrated on the first day of the week (the day after the Sabbath) did not know anything of the word "Sunday".

The same goes for Christmas. I do not celebrate the winter solstice or santa claus, but the coming of Christ into the world. (we do teach our children the true story of the real Saint Nicholas) Actually, it is more of an Advent celebration, since that covers the 40 days before Christmas, and announces the pending arrival of Christ into the world. Most people forget that the 12 days of Christmas begin on Christmas day and go to January 5.

Ancient pagan rites have nothing to do with me or the Christian holidays that I celebrate. I understand that ancient pagans went to sleep at night, woke up in the morning, and also cooked food and ate it. So do I. Does that mean that I am following ancient pagan practices? If they celebrated the coming of the new moon after the spring equinox, (the time of the Passover) and I celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus at about the same time of year, so what?

I have heard the "Christian holidays borrow from ancient pagan rituals" argument for most of my 47 years, and it's getting pretty old.

What God Almighty, "He Who Is", is quite famous for is taking things that are bad and making them into Good. He redeems people and rescues them from the spirits of darkness.

Last Easter our church celebrated "Evidence of Jesus- Answered Prayers, the Presence of God, and Changed Lives" Several of us gave stirring testimony of answered prayers, 180 degree life changes, and the Presence of God in our lives. I have personally seen His power in action- I have seen somone instantly healed when she didn't even know she was being prayed for. I have been healed of a dreadful infection, without medical treatment.

Easter and Christmas, as practiced by me and many many other Christians, are celebrations of Jesus! They are not celebrations of new moons, Saturn, equinox, solstice, or any other thing. God has redeemed me, and He has redeemed these days. "The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

If you do not wish to celebrate Christmas of Easter, that is your decision, and I respect that, and do not ridicule your decision, whatever the reasons. But to make a blanket statement that all Christians who celebrate these days are following ancient pagan rituals- well, it just is not so.

BTW, We do not celebrate halloween, because that truly is a witches holiday. On that night we create "Light Houses" in selected front yards and driveways, where "trick-or treat-ers" can come in costume, play games, and hear about Jesus. We have fun, perform skits and songs that celebrate Jesus, and have a "prayer table" where we offer prayers for people who wish to be prayed for.

[ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: TxIndyFan ]

[rev-ed]

Originally posted by hdolan:
<STRONG>As a matter of fact, that is exactly what the good Rev is arguing...that the Law is no longer valid, becuase of Jesus...that cannot be found in the teachings of Jesus...

PS to Rev:

You know I'm talking about the Law in the Ark of Covenant, not the Levitical Law...you and I know the difference...I suspect few others around here do... </STRONG>

You know Howard, if there's anyone who's as stubborn as you, it's me. I've shown you EXATLY where the teachings of Jesus said this, yet you choose to disagree and claim otherwise.

Let's try it again. The ceremonial law has been fulfilled through Jesus Christ. That is why you don't want me to go out and find a bull to slaughter. That is why I can have a lobster or a pork chop. That is why I don't have to go through a ceremonial washing. Yet you go into Jeremiah to pull out Easter and Christmas. You are arguing against yourself. You can't have it both ways.

It seems that you are unwilling to see my point or any of the countless other folks here who have made the same point. God can sanctify the day. It's not a first-come basis. Blame the church, blame whoever you want, but we do not celebrate or worship a false God just because we worship at Sunrise -- when the Son rose. We do not worship a pagan God because we worship 3 days after the winter solstice.

I am also trying to make plain is that the day of worship is not moral law, it is ceremonial. Setting aside a day is moral law. Certainly you see that difference.

You believe in God, right? How do you worship Him?

[ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: rev-ed ]

[hdolan]

We are in total agreement on the ceremonial law...

"I am also trying to make plain is that the day of worship is not moral law, it is ceremonial. Setting aside a day is moral law. Certainly you see that difference."

The sabbath was and is not a ceremonial law...it is in the heart of the 10 commandments...

I care less that there are those who wish to celebrate Easter, Xmas et al...heck, we have a big bash at Xmas, but, we don't pretend that it is in any way anymore than what it is, a winter festival...We do nothing on Easter...


BTW: The French did a lot of things during the revolution...they even paraded a naked lady around and called the goddess of reason...look up the Spanish word for Saturday, the day of Saturn...

Again, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind onthe subject...if one elects to believe the stories fine...the fact remains, however, the Bible is quite clear on theses things...Jesus was emphatic about the Law...and yes, I know about his "breaking" the sabbath laws...read it again...

How do I wordship God? Good question...

[rev-ed]

Originally posted by hdolan:
<STRONG>We are in total agreement on the ceremonial law...</STRONG>

Progress!

<STRONG>
The sabbath was and is not a ceremonial law...it is in the heart of the 10 commandments...</STRONG>

How does that make it a moral law instead of a ceremonial law? Other moral laws are found outside of the Decalogue. Why wouldn't a ceremonial aspect of a moral law be included? What proof can you offer?

Again, Howard, it comes down to subjective truth. I show you the fulfillment passage and you agree that it applies to ceremonial law, but not to the sabbath. OK, then I go to Colossians, but you discount the author because you don't agree with him.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it's quite convenient that you can accept what you want, but reject what you dislike on the basis -- not of fact, but of your own opinion. That way you never have to admit when you're wrong. After all, you control what is right, in your own eyes!

The thing is, your opinion means nothing in the grand scheme of things. My opinion is equally worthless. Our beliefs cannot make it true, any more than believing that 1+1=3 will make it so. There is objective truth. And it is not swayed by public or personal opinion.

Others have asked, how do you decide which parts of the Bible or any other writings you believe. . . I can see no answer other than, "Because it makes sense to me." At least that was the only answer I came up with when I was struggling hard with all this. Maybe you have a better one. But whatever the answer, it comes down to subjectivity -- that you know better than any other scholar who has come down the pike.

I do, though, appreciate the time and effort you've put in considering all these things. You obviously have quite an interest. I would suppose that it can be a lifelong quest for you just as it is for me. I can spend a lifetime gleaning truth from the 66 books collected as the Holy Bible, knowing that I can accept everything written between its covers as inspired by the Holy Spirit. You can spend a lifetime going through the writings of many scholars and theologians gleaning what you consider truth from them. We each go through similar efforts with different conclusions. [/QB][/QUOTE]

<STRONG>How do I wordship God? Good question...</STRONG>

If it's not too personal a question, would you share your "good answer?"