Psalms 23:4-6

[cornutt]

Rev, if you'll indulge me...

"Yea, thou I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me; Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: Thou hast anointed my head with oil; My cup runneth over. Surely goodness and lovingkindness shall follow me all the days of my life; And I shall dwell in the house of Jehovah for ever."

[StatMan]

I'm not sure how, cornutt, but that verse was really appropriate. Thanks.

-StatMan

[indyracer56]

Amen.

[Mav-1]

Amen.

[D&R Purex #24 fan]

amen
and may everyone in new york washington dc and everywhere else
hear this and be comforted.

[StatMan]

Our nation's President quote the same verse in his national address. Shameful how it's "illegal" (technically not since the Supreme Court decrees are not supposed to be legislation) for anyone to say that in school.

"What, you want to hold a voluntary prayer for the country? Sorry, we have to separate religion from government under the 1st amendment."

-StatMan

[flagman]

Originally posted by StatMan:
<STRONG>Our nation's President quote the same verse in his national address. Shameful how it's "illegal" (technically not since the Supreme Court decrees are not supposed to be legislation) for anyone to say that in school.

"What, you want to hold a voluntary prayer for the country? Sorry, we have to separate religion from government under the 1st amendment."

-StatMan</STRONG>

This is not shameful at all, many people have deep religious beliefs that are not found in the Bible.

Many of them could ask you if there is one God, why do these people think they are going to heaven when they commit acts like those of today.

Religion has gotten out of hand all over the world.

Just for the record, I am not religious at all. If the worst thing I do in life is wanting to wait until I am dead to decide what is true and what isn't, then whomever is in charge should be able to forgive me.

[guslevy]

Originally posted by flagman:
<STRONG>

This is not shameful at all, many people have deep religious beliefs that are not found in the Bible.
</STRONG>

Amen.

[StatMan]

Originally posted by flagman:
<STRONG>This is not shameful at all, many people have deep religious beliefs that are not found in the Bible.
</STRONG>

A student offering a voluntary prayer is not infringing on anyone else's beliefs. According to the 1st Amendment, the government cannot set one religion as the national religion (establishment clause) or prohibit the free exercize of religion (free exercize clause. The gov't has obeyed the establishment clause while completely ignoring the free exercize clause.

Did Bush infringe upon the religious beliefs of non-Christians in the US by quoting scripture? The same court that banned public prayer opens its session with "God save the United States and this Honorable Court."

Incidentally, after the year prayer was disallowed from Public Schools, SAT scores took an unprecidented drop. They continued to drop for 18 consecutive years. Teen suicide rate increased rapidly for many years following the 1963 decision. So did the teen birth rate. So did the teen murder rate. This cannot be dismissed as coincidence anymore than the WTC crashes can be called airline accidents.

I can get more detailed information if you like (graphs and charts and such).

-StatMan

[flagman]

Originally posted by StatMan:
<STRONG>

A student offering a voluntary prayer is not infringing on anyone else's beliefs. According to the 1st Amendment, the government cannot set one religion as the national religion (establishment clause) or prohibit the free exercize of religion (free exercize clause. The gov't has obeyed the establishment clause while completely ignoring the free exercize clause.

Did Bush infringe upon the religious beliefs of non-Christians in the US by quoting scripture? The same court that banned public prayer opens its session with "God save the United States and this Honorable Court."

Incidentally, after the year prayer was disallowed from Public Schools, SAT scores took an unprecidented drop. They continued to drop for 18 consecutive years. Teen suicide rate increased rapidly for many years following the 1963 decision. So did the teen birth rate. So did the teen murder rate. This cannot be dismissed as coincidence anymore than the WTC crashes can be called airline accidents.

I can get more detailed information if you like (graphs and charts and such).

-StatMan</STRONG>

Perhaps you would like your children sitting next to a child who is praying that believes in the same principles as the maniacs that did this. They do it because of there religious beliefs. Keep my kids away from all religion and let me decide what they should be subject to.

Or perhaps you would like to have animals sacraficed in schools. This is normal practice for some religions. People seem to forget that their religion is not the only religion believed in.

Sounds a little bit farfetched doesn't it? But is it any different than a man parting a sea, or a man turning water into wine? Many religions view this as ridiculous.

Third, where does it say your child cannot say a prayer? Must a prayer be said out loud in order for it to be a prayer?

SAT scores and a 15 second prayer are related? Absolutely absurd. Just another excuse for poor parenting and perhaps poor teaching.

Take a look at how many children are in school now compared to 1963. Perhaps the greater numbers is the cause.

Parents, not God, are responsable for their children. If your kid gets a D, do you blame it on the fact that he didn't get to have an open prayer at school?

And while you metion 2 points of the Amendments you fail to mention the seperation of state and religion and last I checked public schools were a state run.

As for the Presidents words, a parent has the option of turning off the TV. Last I checked schools did not allow students to leave classrooms because they don't want to hear what others are saying.

Also while your getting all those charts about how no prayer in school has lowered scores and increased suicide rates, get the charts that show how many kids are in single parent families, are doing drugs, no longer have stay-at-home mothers.

There is plenty of time for praying prior to going to school.

You appear to use religion as an excuse for bad parenting. Teach your kids right from wrong and listen to them and show a real interest in them and they will grow up as productive members of a society with many religious beliefs.

The problem with religion is there is nothing other than books written by people long dead and absolutely nothing can be proved right or wrong. Your beliefs are no more correct or wrong than anyone elses.

If a man says he caught an 85 pound small mouth bass, I will believe it when I see it, not when I read about it. Same goes for religion.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: flagman ]

[StatMan]

Flagman, disagree with me all you want but get your facts right. "Separation of church and state" is nowhere in the Constitution. It is not part of American law at all. It comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, assuring that the government would not restrict religious rights.

I said the government has ignored the free exercise clause while following the establishment clause. That isn't quite true. They are ignoring the establishment clause also. Atheism is a religion. Atheists have a right to disbelieve in God, but the government does not have the right to promote Atheism above all other religions.

Also while your getting all those charts about how no prayer in school has lowered scores and increased suicide rates, get the charts that show how many kids are in single parent families, are doing drugs, no longer have stay-at-home mothers.

Drug use also climbed steadily beginning in..........yep, you guessed it, 1963. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP THE STATS ARE COMPLETELY FACTUAL. IGNORE THEM IF YOU LIKE. I never said parents should not raise their children properly; I'm not sure where you got that from. "Honor Thy Father and Mother", says God.

Religion moved out. Sex and drugs and violence moved in. No surprise really. Despite the fact that most people are worried about the teen murder rate, they seem to have a problem with telling teens "You shall not kill."

Perhaps you would like your children sitting next to a child who is praying that believes in the same principles as the maniacs that did this.

He has the same right to believe in his religion as I do mine. Also, as far as I know none of the "offensive" Christian prayers have involved believing in killing people to get to heaven. Getting up and praying about murdering people obviously should not be allowed by anyone of any religion.

If some students who were Hindu or Muslim got together and prayed I would not call this a 1st Amendment violation. I would disagree, but not try and get them in trouble for "violating the separation 'law'".

-StatMan

[flagman]

The simple fact is you have plenty of time to teach and preach religion outside of school. If religion has left the children it is not the governments fault nor the fact they cannot prey at school. It is because parents allowed it.

And the seperation of state and religion is a LAW not just something on a letter. You learn a little bit.

The Supreme Court, just this year ruled that, BY LAW, the Courthouse in Elkhart, IN was forced to remove a stone bearing the 10 commandments.

You say they should not allow a person to prey about killing people, yet you feel your religious beliefs should be allowed.

Religion has become a crutch and a **** -poor excuse for bad parenting.

I don't need the Bible to tell me how to raise my children.

So while your spending all these hours preaching at your children, I will simply enjoy my childrens company and have a meaningful chat with them.

My world is MY family, not a folklore.

[hdolan]

"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of the new faith...These teachers must imbody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subjects they teach, regardless of the educational level-preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new-the rotting corpse of Christianity...and the new faith of humanism."

Dunphy, John `A Religion For A New Age' in, THE HUMANIST, Jan/Feb, 1983, p. 26

[Turn13]

Welcome back, Howard .

[hdolan]

"Although many metaphysical and theistic theories seem contrived or childish, they are not obviously more absurd than the belief that the universe exists, and exists in the form it does, reasonlessly."

Davies, Paul - THE MIND OF GOD, (NY: Simon & Schuster, 1992) p. 231

Thank you...

[rev-ed]

Originally posted by flagman:
<STRONG>And the seperation of state and religion is a LAW not just something on a letter. You learn a little bit.

The Supreme Court, just this year ruled that, BY LAW, the Courthouse in Elkhart, IN was forced to remove a stone bearing the 10 commandments.
</STRONG>

More accurately, the SC ruled by legal precedent, not by law. The legal precedent was from a legal interpretation of the Constitution done years earlier by the SC. Once a mistake in interpretation is made by one court, it becomes almost impossible to reverse it due to our legal system.

Thanks, Howard for the quote. It sums it up quite nicely. The new religion of humanism is allowed to be preached at my children with my dollars going to pay for it. If one religion is stopped in public school, all should.

Flagman, I'm not looking for corporate public prayer, much for the reason you state -- I don't want somebody making up a prayer for my children. However to deny Christianity or Judaism or Islam or Hinduism in favor of Humanism is out and out hypocrisy.

As far as religion being a crutch or many of your other objections, I can't offer you anything in opposition. I wouldn't dare force my beliefs upon you. I've talked to people making statements like that often. Nothing I say will make a difference to you if you don't want to hear it. That's fine.

I'm no better than you. I won't go to heaven by being good. My trust is in Jesus Christ and His promises. Many have mistaken ideas about who God is. 18 or so of them took over 4 airplanes on Tuesday. God didn't stop that from happening. But he is helping many this week who look to Him. I've talked to many of them.

[rev-ed]

Indeed, Howard, welcome back. We still have to get that theology discussion going some time. Maybe when things slow down around here. . .

[flagman]

Originally posted by rev-ed:
<STRONG>More accurately, the SC ruled by legal precedent, not by law. The legal precedent was from a legal interpretation of the Constitution done years earlier by the SC. Once a mistake in interpretation is made by one court, it becomes almost impossible to reverse it due to our legal system.

Thanks, Howard for the quote. It sums it up quite nicely. The new religion of humanism is allowed to be preached at my children with my dollars going to pay for it. If one religion is stopped in public school, all should.

Flagman, I'm not looking for corporate public prayer, much for the reason you state -- I don't want somebody making up a prayer for my children. However to deny Christianity or Judaism or Islam or Hinduism in favor of Humanism is out and out hypocrisy.

As far as religion being a crutch or many of your other objections, I can't offer you anything in opposition. I wouldn't dare force my beliefs upon you. I've talked to people making statements like that often. Nothing I say will make a difference to you if you don't want to hear it. That's fine.

I'm no better than you. I won't go to heaven by being good. My trust is in Jesus Christ and His promises. Many have mistaken ideas about who God is. 18 or so of them took over 4 airplanes on Tuesday. God didn't stop that from happening. But he is helping many this week who look to Him. I've talked to many of them.</STRONG>

Rev, I have a question for you. In talking with a friend of mine who practices religion, she stated that you will not go to heaven if you do not believe in God, and that there is only 1 god. IS this in the Bible?

And your last statement is why I say religion has become a crutch. Strength should not be found in a book, it should be found from within ones self. If people spent as much time on their self-image and confidence as they do preying the world would be a much better place.

And while you say these people who did this were mistaken about who God is, go to a childrens cancer ward and tell me how great God is then.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: flagman ]

[rev-ed]

Rev, I have a question for you. In talking with a friend of mine who practices religion, she stated that you will not go to heaven if you do not believe in God, and that there is only 1 god. IS this in the Bible?

Flagman, yes that is in the Bible. Many times. I can give you some verses if you like. To summarize, there is only one God. Our sin separates us from God. To go to heaven you have to be without sin. Of course, that leaves us out. However, God has given us the opportunity to be forgiven and cleansed -- in effect to have our record washed away -- and it is found in Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that Jesus paid the penalty for all sin and that if I put my trust in Him and make Him the Lord of my life, then I will be in heaven when my time here on earth is finished.

God grants your request. If you want Him to leave you alone forever, He will. That's what **** is all about -- permanent separation from God.

And your last statement is why I say religion has become a crutch. Strength should not be found in a book, it should be found from within ones self. If people spent as much time on their self-image and confidence as they do preying the world would be a much better place.

I would say that people spend more time on their self-image and confidence right now. It's called pride. And it doesn't make the world any better -- just more selfish.

My strength is found inside me. It is the Holy Spirit's presence in my life within me. But I'm don't think that I have the strength to deal with all of what life has to dump on us by myself. Is that having a crutch? Maybe. Is it using all that God has given me? Certainly. I don't think it wise to turn down a gift from the Creator of the Universe. I also don't use a hand saw if I have a power saw at my disposal. I guess I use power tools as a crutch too.

And while you say these people who did this were mistaken about who God is, go to a childrens cancer ward and tell me how great God is then.

I'm not sure how these two thing relate, but yes those terrorists were mistaken about who God is. God does not call His people to kill those who believe differently.

As far as the children's cancer ward, I've seen been there. I've held my own infant son as he died. I know pain and suffering. Are you saying that if God is sovereign that He would automatically get rid of all pain suffering and evil? If He did that today, there would be nobody left on this planet tonight. When sin entered the world, so did suffering. Is it the way I would run the world? No. But I don't have the same perspective as God. I don't know what is best. God does.

God can stop cancer. God can prevent planes from crashing into buildings. But God chooses to use the pain of this world to make us stronger. As for those like my son who don't make it, their suffering is abbreviated. That is mercy. And God's promise is that I will see him again in Heaven. And reading through the Bible, I haven't found a promise that God hasn't kept.

[flagman]

Originally posted by rev-ed:
<STRONG>I'm not sure how these two thing relate, but yes those terrorists were mistaken about who God is. God does not call His people to kill those who believe differently.

As far as the children's cancer ward, I've seen been there. I've held my own infant son as he died. I know pain and suffering. Are you saying that if God is sovereign that He would automatically get rid of all pain suffering and evil? If He did that today, there would be nobody left on this planet tonight. When sin entered the world, so did suffering. Is it the way I would run the world? No. But I don't have the same perspective as God. I don't know what is best. God does.

God can stop cancer. God can prevent planes from crashing into buildings. But God chooses to use the pain of this world to make us stronger. As for those like my son who don't make it, their suffering is abbreviated. That is mercy. And God's promise is that I will see him again in Heaven. And reading through the Bible, I haven't found a promise that God hasn't kept.</STRONG>

You believe what you do, not because of what you read in the Bible, but because your parents led you in that direction. And while I am not saying that your religion is any more right or wrong, I would not want to be in Heaven if people who did not believe in God on earth are not allowed in. Should a child born on the other side of the world, who's parents instilled in him a different religion, be destined for **** ?

As far as people being selfish, it seems to me that one could prey to God in a pole building just as easily as the muli-million dollar churchs that exist now.

My brother died from cancer after having the worst life imaginable for 13 years. Their pain is not abbreviated as much as it is overwhelming.

Science is advancing with the evolution theory and has actual proof and yet the religious factors refuse to see it, instead wishing to believe a book that was written by people no one ever met, saw, or talked to.

If you were not familiar with the Bible and happened to pick it up and start reading, what would you think of the book? What section of the library would you put it in? Fiction, non-fiction?

[rev-ed]

You believe what you do, not because of what you read in the Bible, but because your parents led you in that direction.

Actually, you're wrong. I ran from the Bible for years. I ran from God for years. I didn't even know what the Bible said for a long time, outside of having heard the stories. When I wanted to make sense of it all, I tried to find a different explanation, but there were none. So I went and investigated what I should have been listening to growing up. It made sense.

And while I am not saying that your religion is any more right or wrong, I would not want to be in Heaven if people who did not believe in God on earth are not allowed in. Should a child born on the other side of the world, who's parents instilled in him a different religion, be destined for **** ?

Again, God doesn't force you into heaven. He gives us the choice. But even someone on the other side of the world can see that this world didn't happen by accident. I know many Christians who grew up on the other side of the world instilled into a different religion. Funny thing is, the Christians who aren't brought up in the faith turn out to be much stronger Christians than many of the milquetoast variety when sit in the pews every Sunday.

As far as people being selfish, it seems to me that one could prey to God in a pole building just as easily as the muli-million dollar churchs that exist now.

Very true. Unfortunately many people who call themselves "Christians" aren't paying much attention to the One whom they claim to follow. See also the Inquisition and the Crusades. The selfishness problem affects us all. Christian friends of mine in Jamaica worship in a pole barn. It works great for them. Unfortunately, few people in this country won't come to investigate Jesus in an uncomfortable setting. . . back to the selfishness thing again.

Christians are not perfect people. We screw up too. . . every single day. And I thank God that He forgives.

My brother died from cancer after having the worst life imaginable for 13 years. Their pain is not abbreviated as much as it is overwhelming.

My sympathies, flagman. I know the pain doesn't go away. There's not a day that goes by that I don't think of my first son. I am thankful that he didn't have a long, painful life.

I don't know why some people suffer long and hard while others do not. The Book of Job addresses that same problem. Job is afflicted with all kinds of pain and cries out to God to know why. He is told basically that God knows what He is doing and that this life is only a shadow of the glory to come. What that means for your brother, I won't even pretend to know. But I do know deep in my heart that God has used terrible tragedy to turn people's lives around. And my faith tells me that the pain suffered here will all be made up for in the next life.

Science is advancing with the evolution theory and has actual proof

I've heard this, but still have yet to see it. The proof that I have seen and still is taught in public school has been proven to be falsified. Any theory of evolution never gets around to dealing with the question of First Cause. Something had to make something to get this thing started. And to me it is obvious that there is intelligent design behind creation. Of course, this is a whole 'nother discussion.

and yet the religious factors refuse to see it, instead wishing to believe a book that was written by people no one ever met, saw, or talked to.

Do you believe that Julius Caesar existed? I don't know anyone who ever talked to him or saw him or met him. A cursory reading of ancient history would show you that these people are confirmed to have existed -- in sources which are not only non-Christian, but anti-Christian.

If you were not familiar with the Bible and happened to pick it up and start reading, what would you think of the book? What section of the library would you put it in? Fiction, non-fiction?

Tough question, since I had some knowledge of the Bible to begin with. But when I took this book of "Bible Stories" and started to investigate it, I found that the solutions offered here made much more sense than the world's alternatives. The list is lengthy of people who have set out to disprove the Bible and have come away as Christians. That wouldn't happen without some incredible arguments for the truthfulness of the Bible.

The ancient manuscript evidence for the accuracy of the Bible is unprecendented in the world of ancient manuscripts. The facts written are continually proven correct by archeological evidence. And the prophecies contained within its covers have proven 100% accurate as well.

Some have told me that I must have incredible faith to believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior, and in a loving God. I have always felt that it takes greater faith to believe that it's all false. If you fit that category, flagman, I congratulate you on your faith.

[StatMan]

If you were not familiar with the Bible and happened to pick it up and start reading, what would you think of the book? What section of the library would you put it in? Fiction, non-fiction?

If I were not familiar with the Bible or the fact that all the evidence is in favor of it being actual and real, I would probably think it was fiction.

We may not have the originals, but we have more ancient copies of the Bible than of any other book. Should we ignore the works of Herodotus the Greek historian? Caesar's Gallic Wars has much less documentation then the Bible, should we throw it out?

Archaeology has consistenly validated the Bible. Cultures, kings, cities, and events - all formerly considered myths due to the fact that they were mentioned in the Bible - have been validated by archaelogy. King David is now know to have actually existed, just to name one example. Name an archaeological dig that proved anything in the Bible to be false.

Consider Noah's flood. Many evolutionists believe Mars, which has virtually no water, to have once had a great flood. But on earth, where 75% of our surface is water - no way they say. After all, that agrees with the Bible so it must be false.

Dr. Simon Greenleaf, who was a Dane Professor of Law at Harvard University, was regarded as the greatest legal authority of his day. He had been an agnostic his whole life, and repeatedly made it his point to tell his students that the Bible - especially the Resurrection - was myth.

One day, some students challenged Dr. Greenleaf to use standard rules of evidence to determine whether the Resurrection was fact or fiction. He began a exhaustive study of the evidence for and against. In An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice, he stated "It was therefore impossible that [the apostles] could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not know this fact as certainly as thew any other fact."

Later on, Greenleaf, the former staunch agnostic would state that he belived the Divine inspiration of the Bible and saw no reason to doubt it. But of course, he couldn't have really said that, since that wasn't the religous view his parent's had taught him.

You believe what you do, not because of what you read in the Bible, but because your parents led you in that direction

Evolution's founder, Charles Darwin, was brought up a strong Christian. In his own words, he "Did not doubt the strict and literal truth of every word in the Bible." On his voyage on the HMS Beagle he had to endure teasing from the officers because he would often quote scripture as the final word on moral truths. I guess then he couldn't have really been the writer of The Origin of Species since his beliefs could only have been those of his parents. You have a higher appreciation of people than I though - is everyone really that obedient to their parents that everyone believes what they do solely because mommy said so?

And speaking of Darwin and evolution...

Science is advancing with the evolution theory and has actual proof

Actual proof???? Name ONE THING about the theory of evolution (that's macroevolution, not microevolution/adaptation which the Bible does not disagree with.), just ONE THING, that you know for a fact to be true.

Before you answer, consider this: Colin Patterson, who disbelieved both the Bible and evolution, asked this question to the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History (strongly evolutionist) and got absolute silence. He asked one of the USA's most renowned evolutionist groups, the Evolutionary Morphology seminar in the University of Chicago. After prolonged silence, one of them spoke: "I do know one thing - that it ought not to be taught in high school."

Not only is evolution not known to be fact, but many things formerly (some still currently) taught or used by evolutionists are known to be false, even fraudulent. Some examples: embryonic recapitualtion/Haeckel's embryos, the horse evolutionary sequence, Inherit the Wind, Piltdown Man, Peking Man, Nebraska Man, and vestigal organs.

Let's say I placed a bet with you on the basis of coin flips. Heads, you give me $5; tails, I give you $5. If I flipped 10 consecutive heads, you'd probably be suspicious. 50 times, you'd be thoroughly convinced I had a cheat coin. By the time I flipped 100 heads, you'd probably want to tie me up, chain a stone to my legs, and throw me in the ocean.

Yet, evolution would have us believe that things MUCH less probable then flipping 100 straigh heads took place. Dr. Lee Spetner has a PhD in physics from MIT; he taught for 10 year at Johns Hopkins University and the Weitzman Institute. Using rates agreed as generous towards evolution, he calculated the odds of mutations developing a new species. The consequetial odds are 1:3.6x10^2738! That is a 1 versus a 36 followed by 2,737 zeros!

To paraphase Spetner in his book, Not By Chance!, how come those who seriously believe mutations can develop new species don't believe they can become millionares by picking pennies off the street?

As James "Jack" Perloff, in his book [i]Tornado in a Junkyard, says: "'The princess kissed the frog, and he turned into a handsome prince.' We call that a fiary tale. Evolution says frogs turn into princes, and we call it science."

You can go on believing whatever you wish. But consider (and take this paragraph to mean no more than exactly what it says) that mutually exclusive things cannot both be true. Some view out there has to be true, but not all can be. Either I am sitting in my chair typing at 5:45 central time, or I'm not.

Where you end up depends on your vote. Death has cast it's vote. Life has cast it's vote. Your vote breaks the tie. If you choose not to vote, death will cast your vote for you. When eternity comes, only then will we know what everyone voted.

-StatMan

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: StatMan ]

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: StatMan ]

[flagman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by StatMan:
[QB]

Actual proof???? Name ONE THING about the theory of evolution (that's macroevolution, not microevolution/adaptation which the Bible does not disagree with.), just ONE THING, that you know for a fact to be true.

Before you answer, consider this: Colin Patterson, who disbelieved both the Bible and evolution, asked this question to the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History (strongly evolutionist) and got absolute silence. He asked one of the USA's most renowned evolutionist groups, the Evolutionary Morphology seminar in the University of Chicago. After prolonged silence, one of them spoke: "I do know one thing - that it ought not to be taught in high school."

Not only is evolution not known to be fact, but many things formerly (some still currently) taught or used by evolutionists are known to be false, even fraudulent. Some examples: embryonic recapitualtion/Haeckel's embryos, the horse evolutionary sequence, Inherit the Wind, Piltdown Man, Peking Man, Nebraska Man, and vestigal organs.

Let's say I placed a bet with you on the basis of coin flips. Heads, you give me $5; tails, I give you $5. If I flipped 10 consecutive heads, you'd probably be suspicious. 50 times, you'd be thoroughly convinced I had a cheat coin. By the time I flipped 100 heads, you'd probably want to tie me up, chain a stone to my legs, and throw me in the ocean.

Yet, evolution would have us believe that things MUCH less probable then flipping 100 straigh heads took place. Dr. Lee Spetner has a PhD in physics from MIT; he taught for 10 year at Johns Hopkins University and the Weitzman Institute. Using rates agreed as generous towards evolution, he calculated the odds of mutations developing a new species. The consequetial odds are 1:3.6x10^2738! That is a 1 versus a 36 followed by 2,737 zeros!

To paraphase Spetner in his book, Not By Chance!, how come those who seriously believe mutations can develop new species don't believe they can become millionares by picking pennies off the street?

As James "Jack" Perloff, in his book [i]Tornado in a Junkyard, says: "'The princess kissed the frog, and he turned into a handsome prince.' We call that a fiary tale. Evolution says frogs turn into princes, and we call it science."

You can go on believing whatever you wish. But consider (and take this paragraph to mean no more than exactly what it says) that mutually exclusive things cannot both be true. Some view out there has to be true, but not all can be. Either I am sitting in my chair typing at 5:45 central time, or I'm not.

Where you end up depends on your vote. Death has cast it's vote. Life has cast it's vote. Your vote breaks the tie. If you choose not to vote, death will cast your vote for you. When eternity comes, only then will we know what everyone voted.

-StatMan

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: StatMan ]

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by:

If you want to talk statistics what is the ratio for turning water to wine? A man parting a sea?

[rev-ed]

Originally posted by flagman:
<STRONG>If you want to talk statistics what is the ratio for turning water to wine? A man parting a sea?</STRONG>

Ah, so you believe in miracles?

Parting a sea is possible with an Almighty God.

Turning a paramecium into a fish is possible with an Almighty God.

Neither are possible without.

[StatMan]

Rev said pretty much what I was going to say. A supernatural God is going to be a lot better at doing miracles than blind, random chance. If he created the laws that govern nature, why would he be bound by them?

-StatMan

[MrIndy]

Originally posted by cornutt:
<STRONG>Rev, if you'll indulge me...

"Yea, thou I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me; Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: Thou hast anointed my head with oil; My cup runneth over. Surely goodness and lovingkindness shall follow me all the days of my life; And I shall dwell in the house of Jehovah for ever."</STRONG>

Amen!