One month later

[hdolan]

I'm listening and watching to the memorial service at the Pentagon. My emotions run the full spectrum from anger to humbleness. The patriotic music and the speeches once again stir the soul.

Once again I find myself harboring feelings of great anger against those who attacked my country and those both foreign and domestic who supported such activity. And make no mistake, the domestic threat is real. No amount of PC can change that fact.

I feel for those who have no sense of history when dealing in such matters as wars of survival. The ignorance displayed by some who would "negotiate" with those bent on destroying this country is almost laughable, if it were not so dangerous.

I want retribution to the nth degree, that pound of flesh. I reject any attempt to use past events as justification of the evil levied on our nation. I seek a future void of those who would be a danger to our children and grandchildren by whatever means neccessary.

God bless America...and may he separate the just fronm the unjust...

[Truth Detector]

Very well said, Howard.

I made a post on the Off-Topic forum about the Pentagon Memorial Service. I've always been a sucker for the Battle Hymn of the Republic, but I've never seen a more powerful version than what I saw this morning.

[Dreyer]

Ive made comments on thsi in the past
but thats whats gotten me banned.
I just hope we smoke em out and make them pay for what they did.

I voted for takeing one of the unmanned planes that is flown by computer and ramming it though there palace, or parliment building. See hwo they like it.

[freestyle]

I've seen enough ribbons and paper flags and I don't see how that helps anything. We can sing patriotic songs all we want. I doubt our gov't has the slightest clue how to stop these people. That's the sad part.

[Dreyer]

i know all this
loving our own country is so sickening.
Freestyle
if you dont like ou govt, you can go check out cubas, they are real fair.

[Brian Hall]

Originally posted by Dreyer:
<STRONG>Ive made comments on thsi in the past
but thats whats gotten me banned.
I just hope we smoke em out and make them pay for what they did.

I voted for takeing one of the unmanned planes that is flown by computer and ramming it though there palace, or parliment building. See hwo they like it.</STRONG>

Eric,

They don't HAVE any building worth ramming a drone into (We can thank the Russians for that). That'll be the hard part of this mission. They don't really have anything worth blowing up. At least Iraq was a "target rich environment".

We are doing exactly what we should be doing right now. Hit the Command and Control systems, and then get the Taliban on the run. It'll be much easier to hit them while they are running from camp to camp. It'll take a while, but they can't hide in those caves forever. Just like the prarie dog, they'll pop their heads out eventually, and then we can kill the disease carrying vermin

Now don't make me mad by calling for carpet bombing or anything like that b/c it won't do any good.

[Brian Hall]

Originally posted by Dreyer:
<STRONG>i know all this
loving our own country is so sickening.
Freestyle
if you dont like ou govt, you can go check out cubas, they are real fair.</STRONG>

Eric, that isn't what he said. (I'm not speaking for him, but allow me a moment to attempt a clarification).

Flag waving is GREAT, and I'm all for it. It strengthens our resolve. BUT, national pride alone won't solve this problem. It'll take a certain type of action. Freestyle apparently doesn't believe that our government even knows WHAT action will ultimate end terrorism.

Personally, I don't know the answer either. It's going to take so MANY different things from bombs to intelligence to covert aid and finally to outright state sanctioned murder of their leaders.

We probably don't WANT to know all the things that'll be done to solve this problem. It's going to get gruesome and americans will die doing it.

[rev-ed]

Originally posted by freestyle:
<STRONG>I've seen enough ribbons and paper flags and I don't see how that helps anything. </STRONG>

freestyle - The flag waving is good for our country's interest. When the public stops supporting it's country's troops in battle, the war is lost. (see Vietnam)

Yes, many people are on a bandwagon kick -- it's hip to be patriotic right now. However, if most of the country was of the same mindset as the peace extremists, we might as well go over and fly the terrorists back to the US.

Don't ever underestimate the value of morale.

[dog-ring]

Gee Rev, I thought you were a Quaker!

[Railbird]

Doesn't this belong off topic?

Waving our flags and thumping our chests while calling for revenge is pablum for the masses..

When this showtime bombing campaign is over we will be sending some of our best and brightest in to do some throat slitting..Our thoughts and prayers should be focused on their successes..I hope they can bring him back alive.

Then the toughest part begins. Tracking down and busting the financers of this evil will force us into ruffling feathers that haven't been ruffled for a while..Possibly force us into the role of kidnapper which will further our own insecurities..Before the end we will have to step on many toes, some of our allies, some of our own..

I for one will stick with the thoughts and prayers while leaving the chest thumping to the more simple minded.

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Railbird ]

[freestyle]

The problem isn't a couple dozen Taliban chieftans. The problem is the hundreds of millions of Islamics who support them, harbor them, allow them to travel freely throughout the Muslim world, and who dance in the streets when terrorists strike.
If I see another little film clip of a million dollar missle blowing up some shack I'm going to puke. We need to take the war to the Muslim people because they have allowed terrorism to flourish. The Japanese and German people felt the pain and they learned their lesson. Now it should be Islam's turn, but I don't think we have the balls to get the job done..

[WestMcLarenF1]

Originally posted by freestyle:
<STRONG>I don't think we have the balls to get the job done..</STRONG>

Thank You for your comments, Mr. Bin Laden.

[Truth Detector]

Originally posted by Railbird:
<STRONG>I for one will stick with the thoughts and prayers</STRONG>

Good idea.

<STRONG>while leaving the chest thumping to the more simple minded.
</STRONG>

Talk to a soldier who has been overseas, is heading overseas, is returning from overseas, etc. Ask him/her what they think about the show of patriotism state-side.

[mds24]

This is a war and an enemy like none we have ever seen before.

Even if we tucked our tails and left the Middle East it would not be enough for bin Laden and his supporters for as long as we are around they can never take over the governments of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and destroy Israel.

bin Laden does not want peace with us, he does not want to negotiate with us. He wants us dead. If he got hold of a nuclear bomb he would not think twice about using it on us or England.

This isn't going to be an easy war to win because even after we bring justice to him there will be others like him to take his place.

This isn't chest thumping, this is a choice of life or death. We must be willing to win this war.

[Railbird]

"I for one will stick with the thoughts and prayers while leaving the chest thumping to the more simple minded."

Let me change "simple minded" to "others"


My thoughts and prayers are still with the brave folks in harms way..

Truth Detector and Matt OTN...You boys have read me wrong if you don't think I'm in for the long haul..

I don't need to be preached to to fly the flag, I've flown it all my life.

[mds24]

Railbird, although I picked out one of your terms I really did not mean to direct my response to you.

It is more to those holding peace rallies and the like at college campuses and recently in Washington D.C.

I don't think they have a clue what is going on, but thankfully their numbers are very small so far.

We were not willing to wage this war after the first attack on the WTC, although there was evidence bin Laden was behind that also.

We basically tucked and ran after Somalia, and bin Laden has claimed some individuals he trained were involved there.

We would not wage the war after the embassies in Africa were bombed, eventhough that was bin Laden. We lobbed a some bombs but were not willing to really go after him.

We would not wage the war after the Cole was attacked, again bin Laden was behind that.

We can sit back and continue to let him - and his supporters - attack us and they have shown they will.

Or we can wage this war.

We have no choice, and we must be willing to win this war. Since others will step up and replace bin Laden once we have dealt with him, this war technically may never end. We may not always be in an overt war, but we will always be in a covert war.

But we do not have a choice about winning this war.

[Lucky161]

I ought to just stay out of this, but I can't help it. Bombing their palace? Come on, the guy is a multimillionaire and chooses to live in caves and tents. The Taliban? Have you not seen the pictures over there. There is no palace. There is no parliment, just a group of power crazy individuals in a loose control of the country.
Take it to the Muslims? You just refuse to believe the truth when it is right in front of you. The vast majority of Muslims did not and do not support these terrorists. I don't see anyone demanding that the FBI root out all of the fundamentalist Christians that allow Timothy McVeys to run free in our country. Evil and hate do not have a country, religion or race.
Vengence? I can't quote it exactly, but I think it says "Vengence is mine, sayeth the lord." You mean you would risk burning in **** and going against your god, just for revenge? Or do you think God is going to be passing out "Get Out of Heck Free" cards because you have been angered and feel helpless?
Not willing to accept that the U.S. is not even a little bit to blame in dealing misery to these people over the years? We didn't deserve this, but they didn't deserve what they have gotten either. Two wrongs do not make a right. And hundreds of wrongs will not make previous wrongs right.
Extreme pacifist? Not very many of them and hardly more than a mere nusance at the most. Most people are behind the President and his handling of this matter.
More carpet bombing? The general explains, "yes sir, see in this previous picture, we have a pile of large rocks and in the after picture you can easily see how we have turned them into a pile of small rocks. And we have made their air force even more useless than it was before."

[Truth Detector]

Originally posted by Railbird:
<STRONG>"I for one will stick with the thoughts and prayers while leaving the chest thumping to the more simple minded."

Let me change "simple minded" to "others"


My thoughts and prayers are still with the brave folks in harms way..

Truth Detector and Matt OTN...You boys have read me wrong if you don't think I'm in for the long haul..

I don't need to be preached to to fly the flag, I've flown it all my life. </STRONG>

[hdolan]

"...leaving the chest thumping to the more simple minded."

Yes, a show of patiotism is naive to quote a journalist...I tire of the excuses for Islam...the local radio talk shows have had a few heads of Isamic groups on...not one has emphatically decried the idea of killing the infidel Christian...

There are, according to one Islamic spokesmen I've heard, three enemies of Islam and all three should be destroyed...

1. The Jews
2. Communists
3. Christians

I tire of excuses as to why it was understandable for the attacks against this country...there is no excuse, only reasons and none are good enough...it is a war of civilizations...anyone who misses that is naive at best...

[cmego]

My solution is to recycle all the old cement from the TC, and start filling in the caves in Afghanistan.

[Racewriter]

I agree totally with what Matt and Howard said. The Muslim world gives lip service to condemning the actions, but in reality, they support them.

Any comparison of Tim McVeigh and Bin Laden is idiotic. McVeigh was executed, by the United States. Or didn't you get the memo?

In this war, the US needs to be very careful about who it calls "allies." The old doctrine that says, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is not enough. The idea that we would accept Iran into our coalition is stupidity. As our Speednet friend Clvn n hbbs pointed out, "The price of freedom is never paid in full."

I'm glad that I live in a country where the peaceniks are free to hold their little, useless candlelight vigils. But I'm more glad that the majority of Americans are made of stronger stuff, to protect their freedoms.

[Lucky161]

I don't see where anyone else was executed with McVey. So if you are going to make the jump that Muslims are just giving lip service to opposing terrorism, then it's not a long step to a lot of people over here, claiming to be Christians certainly supported what McVey did.
Again I'll reiterate. I support the president and his advisors even though I didn't vote for him and probably won't next time either.

[Racewriter]

Originally posted by Lucky161:
<STRONG>it's not a long step to a lot of people over here, claiming to be Christians certainly supported what McVey did.
</STRONG>

Please provide evidence of:

Rallies supporting Tim McVeigh

Videotape of mass celebrations immediately after the OKC bombing

Credible evidence of his leadership of a widespread network of terrorists

State governments (I'll even let you use Idaho) who provided him with safe haven, training, and financing, KNOWING FULL WELL WHAT HE WOULD DO WITH IT.

Lucky, give it up. It's a stupid, if not completely moronic, comparison, and it makes you look bad.

[Lucky161]

Actually blaming millions of downtrodden people of another religion is what I could call stupid and would make anyone making such an accusation look bad.
I keep hearing demands that Muslims take a more active part in denouncing the terrorist. Over the weekend, there was a demonstration in Pakistan supporting their governments role as an ally to the U.S. in the war against terrorism. What did they do to show their support? They just walked barefoot over hot coals. Is that demonstrative enough for you?
I keep getting the feeling that some of you think I am anti American because I don't support dropping bombs on civilians except when it can't be avoided reasonably or bombing a place into ruin just because a small group of people are holed up there. The president is on course. Revenge is not proper, but justice is.

[Racewriter]

In other words, you have no answer to my question above. We can, therefore, assume that we will no longer have to listen to you carry on about Tim McVeigh. Glad to hear it.

[Lucky161]

The fact that there are some differences between these two situations do not emlinate their similarities. Both of these atrocities were the work of madmen buoyed by their misguided beliefs that they can make the world better by killing large numbers of people.
The fact that there are many Muslims that oppose us, hate us and protest against us does not mean that it is either morally right or tactically right to bomb large groups of civilians when our target is a small group of terrorist.
And Racewriter, I would appreciate it if you could be a little more civil. We have differences of opinions on this subject. We generally agree on racing topics and this is a racing board, after all. You could be right or I could be right. Or there might be something else entirely going on that either or both of us are not privy to or qualified to discuss, but that is not a reason for any of us to be uncivil towards one another.

[Racewriter]

I didn't mean to be uncivil, lucky. Seriously. But, I've gotta admit, the continuous references to mcVeigh really **** me off, for the reasons I stated above.

In any case, we're still pals. OK?

Now about that $7,000 sprint car engine...

[Lucky161]

Some of you might get more of a kick out of this than I did, however I did find it funny.
How to deal with a war protester
1.Approach the protester talking about "peace" and saying there should be no retaliation.
2. Engage in bried conversation. Ask if military force is appropriate?
3. If response is negative, ask, "Why not?"
4. Wait for a response like, "because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."
5. When he is in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.
6. When he gets back up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you because that would cause more violence.
7. Wait for him to agree to not commit additional violence.
8. Punch him in the face again, harder this time.
Repeat steps 6-8 until they understand that sometimes it is necessary to punch back. If you get tired you can have someone else take your place while you rest your arm.

[Lucky161]

Racewriter, I'm cool with that. Thankfully we live in the U.S. where you can voice strong opinions and not worry about going to jail for it.

[hdolan]

"The fact that there are many Muslims that oppose us, hate us and protest against us does not mean that it is either morally right or tactically right to bomb large groups of civilians when our target is a small group of terrorist."

How would you deal with these folks...