A solution.....

[FlatOut]

For years I tried to be Mr. Sunshine around here ands that didn't accoplish anything. Everyone talked me out of it and convinced me that everything sucks. Now I'm just trying to fit in.

We went through this before after I warned everyone. Seems everyone forgets just how right I was, and I'm gonna be right again this time too. I mean, I've only seen this happen over and over for the 50 years I've been following and been involved in racing of all types. The motors and the manufacturers always end up being the problem.

Funny thing is, it's the disenfranchised cart/champcar fans that were so anxious to see the manufacturers and the new motors. Hell, it was the manufacturers that destroyed cart to begin with. Champcar fans know better, or at least they should by now. How's your series doing, eh? How'de that manufacturer pull out work for you guys? 240mph is great as long as the money doesn't dry up.



I'm willing to let it play out, and complain the whole time, because I already know how it is going to end.

When tobacco money dried up, teams left. Then the Hulmans open checkbook opened up even more for the IRL, then they shut that down and kicked TG to the curb.
Engine manufactures destroyed CART? lol.
Did multi engine manufactures destroy the irl?

If multi engine manufactures destroy, then why is IC going down that road? And why did you say Honda itself bailed the IRL out? Because they could bury the leauge as well, right? Nope. They'd just bolt some motors in from CamKing's hands that he's touched.

[Swaze]

The one thing that just might save us this time will be that it is one series, and just maybe there will be enough momentum to attract some good sponsorship and get the teams healthy. Then they can all get greedy again, stage a revolt and run their own series. There's that history repeating thing again, eh?

No that's not history repeating itself. TG is the one who staged a revolt and started his own series. The IRL was created as result of the split not CART.

That same creation of the IRL and open-wheel war is also what eventually caused Honda and Toyota to bail from CART because they wanted to race at Indy. If not for the split and open-wheel war who is to say they bail? What reason would they have had to bail if that reason didn't exist?

By the way you still may be right they may end up screwing over the series and doing more harm than good a few years from now but you can't guarantee that. At best you have an educated guess and with new leadership this time around anything can happen.

[Doc Austin]

No that's not history repeating itself. TG is the one who staged a revolt and started his own series.

Remember 1979?

If not for the split and open-wheel war who is to say they bail? What reason would they have had to bail if that reason didn't exist?

Ask Toyota and chevrolet why they bailed on the IRL. I believe they cited high costs, but they were coincidentially getting blown out at the time too.

By the way you still may be right they may end up screwing over the series and doing more harm than good a few years from now but you can't guarantee that.

There are no guarantees, but history is as good an indicator as anything, especially when it repeats itself as many times as the manufacturers have bailed.

At best you have an educated guess and with new leadership this time around anything can happen.

God help us.

[Doc Austin]

When tobacco money dried up, teams left.

Use the search feature. I repeatedly told everyone that was coming too.

Money is like crack. People can't quit until it is taken away from them, and then the withdrawal is hell.

Engine manufactures destroyed CART? lol.

They did their best. Without Gere and KK's checkbooks, plus Ford sticking around, champcar would have never gotten out of bankruptcy court.

Did multi engine manufactures destroy the irl?

They did their best, but Honda stuck around and kept us in good engines.

If multi engine manufactures destroy, then why is IC going down that road?

Because the current leader has been an auto racing fan for.... what .... two or three years? I'm not so sure he has a good working knowledge of the history of manufacturers coming and going.

And why did you say Honda itself bailed the IRL out?

I didn't say, but I would imagine they liked the idea of a captive field and the marketing opportunity. This time around they might stay after they blow everyone out, or they might not.

[Todd Gack]

Ask Toyota and chevrolet why they bailed on the IRL. I believe they cited high costs, but they were coincidentially getting blown out at the time too.

They bailed for many reasons. Way too expensive, for the ROI. Toyota and Chevy were more interested in NASCAR. Not enough eyeballs. Just a bad business deal to continue on with.

[ptclaus98]

Having manufacturers isn't what kills anything. Having them create a bespoke engine that has no relevance to any other racing they do and then limiting what engines are allowed and having asinine rules about engine badging, that is the type of horse**** that ruins a series. And it's not like the manufacturers should have any problems with racing against these types of engines. Honda and Chevy do it in the ALMS all the damn time. As big a fan as I am of Randy, and of the V6T's, this was a bad move on his part. They should have had a chassis formula, and an engine displacement limit, and invited anyone who wanted to build something to do so.

[WheelerDealer]

Doc, not questioning your wisdom. But consider some other reasons.

Take F1. The manufacturers have been in and out of play over the decades. They owned teams and they sold teams. They produce engines. They rise and fall in participation and promotional spending. Yet F1 is arguably very successful. The reason has to a lot to do with a ruthless leader in King Bernie, but the real answer is a strong leader with a vision in place and that person drives the entire sport to new economic heights. The inclusion of manufacturers in IndyCar is good and bad. The way to make it good is to have a more dominant force in the league leadership. Has been and will continue to be the problem. Going back to Andrew Craig and up to Tony George, IndyCar has lacked an alpha leader to take charge of operations and development. Until someone is kicking ass and taking names on a regular basis, these side concerns about manufacturers will be seen as problems. Will Randy Bernard be that person? WE will see as he lines up the pieces he is putting together.

[Doc Austin]

They bailed for many reasons. Way too expensive, for the ROI.

Too expensive is always the convenient excuse. It's never too expensive when they are winning, is it?

[Todd Gack]

Too expensive is always the convenient excuse. It's never too expensive when they are winning, is it?

It is when its in a series they don't really care about to begin with.

[Jakester]

Too expensive is always the convenient excuse. It's never too expensive when they are winning, is it?

Yes, sometimes it is. Peugot and WEC.

[Doc Austin]

Yes, sometimes it is. Peugot and WEC.

That's not it all of it. Porsche is coming. You'de better believe they weighed that part out.

[Doc Austin]

It is when its in a series they don't really care about to begin with.

Manufacturers never care about any series they are in. That's why they always leave such a disaster behind them. They come in and splash money around as long as they are winning and getting a positive buzz, but when they start getting thumped they leave citing high costs.

The best example is Chevrolet. They bailed on cart when they stopped winning and the same in the IRL. When they were winning there were promotional ads and everything, but once they couldn't keep up they didn't hang around long.

The only manufacturer I have ever seen that demonstrated any sort of "care" about a series was Honda floating Indycar until they got some competition. Certainly they got paid, but I am not convinced they didn't lose money on that deal.

[Joonyah]

Manufacturers never care about any series they are in. That's why they always leave such a disaster behind them. They come in and splash money around as long as they are winning and getting a positive buzz, but when they start getting thumped they leave citing high costs.

Explain Peugeot leaving sports cars in January. They won lots of sports car races with the 908.

Explain Renault leaving F1 in the mid 90s as an engine maker. They powered the WCC winning car from 1992-1997 and the WDC winning car every year during that time except for 1994.

[Turn13]

The only manufacturer I have ever seen that demonstrated any sort of "care" about a series was Honda floating Indycar until they got some competition.

And yet Honda said they desired to have the competition.

[RS2]

Explain Peugeot leaving sports cars in January. They won lots of sports car races with the 908.

Explain Renault leaving F1 in the mid 90s as an engine maker. They powered the WCC winning car from 1992-1997 and the WDC winning car every year during that time except for 1994.

Also VW in the Dakar and Subaru, Mitsubishi and Peugeot in WRC.