Are we just "split" fans or do we have principles?

[AdamM]

I just have to shake my head when I see the same folks who used to condem manufacture shenanigans when it was a CART problem now explaining away the same manuvers as being "good for the series".

I'm just waiting for the first time someone trys to explain to me the difficulties of man-handling an Indycar around the concrete canyons....

Yep, Bird that’s exactly where we are at. I too wouldn’t be surprised when some IRL fans start signing the praises of street courses. It’s going to happen and those of us who oppose it and remind people that it is totally hypocritical, will be shouted down or branded as complainer’s or told we just “misunderstood” the vision TG and the IRL were communicating back in the early days (yea right, look at an IRL program or press release from 96 & 97 and tell me we misunderstood.)

It’s a bizarre situation. I thought most of us who were IRL fans were opposed to CART based upon principles. That’s why when the IRL does the same things that we complained about in CART, fans ought to be equally upset, maybe even more so, instead of coming up with weak excuses to justify it (why weren’t those excuses ok for CART back in 95?) And it’s not just IRL fans. I see CART hardcores doing handsprings justifying a series that they would have mocked a few years ago.

I’ve come to the conclusion that a significant % of “fans” on these type of forums were in it just for the “split.” Everything was about CART losing and the IRL winning (and vise versa) even it means morphing into something that looks an awful lot like what they originally opposed. For these folks there were no principles to uphold, no consistent vision, just CART going into the dumper and Tony George running the show (again the reverse is true for the CART hardcores.)

In some sense I have a deep level of respect for some of the CART fans who we don’t hear much from anymore. I suppose many walked away, or gave up, rather than give support to a CART series that is hollow shell of its former self and embrace what they had previously opposed (note this excludes the type of goofball that hangs out at c-wagon – the very worst example of “split” fans on the net IMHO.) Now I totally disagree with their (legit CART fans from the 90’s) ideas about the direction of the sport and I still to this day think the CART series as put together in the mid and late 90’s was in need of a massive overall or retooling to make it attractive to US fans. But in a sense I respect their position because it was taken for reasons of principle – of course I disagree with them, but I can at least appreciate where they stand.

Man, this is a crazy situation.

[Shadow101]

Originally posted by AdamM
I’ve come to the conclusion that a significant % of “fans” on these type of forums were in it just for the “split.” Everything was about CART losing and the IRL winning (and vise versa) even it means morphing into something that looks an awful lot like what they originally opposed. For these folks there were no principles to uphold, no consistent vision, just CART going into the dumper and Tony George running the show (again the reverse is true for the CART hardcores.)

Bravo. Could not have said it better myself.

[hdolan]

The 'we win' group are extremely happy...they are willing to accept everything that CART represented through the years...the very same things that the 'we win' group initially bashed CART for...good post...

[dreamracer]

Originally posted by AdamM
Yep, Bird that’s exactly where we are at. I too wouldn’t be surprised when some IRL fans start signing the praises of street courses. It’s going to happen and those of us who oppose it and remind people that it is totally hypocritical, will be shouted down or branded as complainer’s or told we just “misunderstood” the vision TG and the IRL were communicating back in the early days (yea right, look at an IRL program or press release from 96 & 97 and tell me we misunderstood.)

It’s a bizarre situation. I thought most of us who were IRL fans were opposed to CART based upon principles. That’s why when the IRL does the same things that we complained about in CART, fans ought to be equally upset, maybe even more so, instead of coming up with weak excuses to justify it (why weren’t those excuses ok for CART back in 95?) And it’s not just IRL fans. I see CART hardcores doing handsprings justifying a series that they would have mocked a few years ago.

I’ve come to the conclusion that a significant % of “fans” on these type of forums were in it just for the “split.” Everything was about CART losing and the IRL winning (and vise versa) even it means morphing into something that looks an awful lot like what they originally opposed. For these folks there were no principles to uphold, no consistent vision, just CART going into the dumper and Tony George running the show (again the reverse is true for the CART hardcores.)

In some sense I have a deep level of respect for some of the CART fans who we don’t hear much from anymore. I suppose many walked away, or gave up, rather than give support to a CART series that is hollow shell of its former self and embrace what they had previously opposed (note this excludes the type of goofball that hangs out at c-wagon – the very worst example of “split” fans on the net IMHO.) Now I totally disagree with their (legit CART fans from the 90’s) ideas about the direction of the sport and I still to this day think the CART series as put together in the mid and late 90’s was in need of a massive overall or retooling to make it attractive to US fans. But in a sense I respect their position because it was taken for reasons of principle – of course I disagree with them, but I can at least appreciate where they stand.

Man, this is a crazy situation.

Great post. (Especially that last sentence... )

[Disciple]

Originally posted by hdolan
The 'we win' group are extremely happy...they are willing to accept everything that c^rt represented through the years...the very same things that the 'we win' group initially bashed c^rt for.

I'd like to take myself out of that broadly brushed group, please.

There are a lot of c^rt-like things I refuse to accept about today's IRL, including:

Toyota not adhering to contracts.

Sealed engines.

Ineffective promotion.

Ride buying.

That said, anyone who thinks the IRL is now c^rt is either woefully stupid or not paying the least bit of attention.

For every concocted similarity these unwelcomed buffoons attempt to foist (usually in a variety forums that purportedly have the IRL as the main topic) I can give five dissimilarities.

In summary, the sky is not falling, and real racing fans are not the hypocrites people who generally don't even know how to spell that word portray them to be.

[hdolan]

"There are a lot of c^rt-like things I refuse to accept about today's IRL, including:

Toyota not adhering to contracts.

Sealed engines.

Ineffective promotion.

Ride buying.

That said, anyone who thinks the IRL is now c^rt is either woefully stupid or not paying the least bit of attention."

Thanks for list...the duck syndrome...perhaps I'm just woefully stupid...

[slinger]

"Thanks for list...the duck syndrome...perhaps I'm just woefully stupid..."

All things are possible.........

[indyracer56]

I have always been a fan of the IRL and Cart.

While oval tracks are my favorites, I can enjoy street races for what they are....I have even spent money to attend the Detroit GP.......more than once.

I didn't even know that this "holy war" existed until I discovered the forums.

Ignorant bliss.

I think that the people who have only been in this to see one side "lose" and the other "win" will not be happy no matter what happens.

[IndyIRLman]

I sure as He77 am not a "split fan". I hated the split. I was absolutely PO'd at the fact that MA, AUJ, PT and others were not going to be racing at Indy. I knew nothing of the politics of racing. I was crushed. In fact I wouldn't even watch the first few IRL races except for Indy(I wouldn't miss THE 500 no matter how pi$$ed off I was). My father-in-law( and IRL fan from day 1) kept telling me I should watch and enjoy the racing. One day I finally listened to him and began to let the anger fade. I decided to find something positive from it. That would be that I would have twice as many races to watch.

In time I started to like the IRL better than CART. The IRL is now my favorite series. But I still like CART and watch all of their races(except RA this year).

[slinger]

Originally posted by indyracer56
I have always been a fan of the IRL and Cart.

While oval tracks are my favorites, I can enjoy street races for what they are....I have even spent money to attend the Detroit GP.......more than once.

I didn't even know that this "holy war" existed until I discovered the forums.

Ignorant bliss.

I think that the people who have only been in this to see one side "lose" and the other "win" will not be happy no matter what happens.

What happens to those whose reason for living is hating something and the thing they hate dies? They are left with nothing.

[dreamracer]

I didn't even know that this "holy war" existed until I discovered the forums.

Indeed.

Before that, I was just a happy race fan.

In my uninformed opinion I thought the IRL ideology was about more americans, less costs, and ovals. I had no idea it was about "greedy owners" and "bumbling management". I could have given a rat's patootie about "the failing board structure and proposed alternate management structure" of CART. I thought thier show was just fine.

They raced, I watched.

I was one of those fans that the CART sanctioned "Indycar" brought to the sport.

That was then, though.

Now I spend too much time reading (and occasionally letting myself get drawn into) the pi$$ing matches on the forums, that usually degrade into insults. The "He started it" crud that pollutes an otherwise exceptionally informative place. Not sure why, though. (I guess it's a little bit of the train wreck mentality.)

I'v never been a "Split Fan".

Wishing ill will on others (fail dangit! fail!) is really just bad karma.

[indyracer56]

Originally posted by slinger
They are left with nothing.

Is that another name for a NASCAR fan????

[carl s]

Originally posted by slinger
What happens to those whose reason for living is hating something and the thing they hate dies? They are left with nothing.

Wise words Slinger
the Sage of Wareham

They "are" left with nothing - but themselves.

carl s
Indio, CA

[IndyIRLman]

nevermind

[timinglights]

Originally posted by Defender

In summary, the sky is not falling, and real racing fans are not the hypocrites people who generally don't even know how to spell that word portray them to be.

The sky isn't falling.

But TV viewership for the Indy 500 is.

Why?

[Disciple]

Why, thanks for asking. Say, you're not related to that crockett feller who used to ask the same exact question every single time he made a post over on the Scar's web site, are you? Your mode of operation seems remarkably similar.

I'm sure Tony appreciates you fretting so publicly over this.

Here is what caused the decline in ratings:

1. Failure to adequately market the product by the IRL.

2. An abominable broadcast 'partner.'

3. The explosion of the Internet.

4. The explosion of the availability of new cable channels.

5. The explosion of new forms of entertainment.

6. Eight years of some of the most vile and counterproductive scorched earth not seen in this country since the mid 1800's, and 99.9% of it originating from those associated with c^rt. We're talking everything from boycotts to stupid statements from CEO's to classless poor sports like Paul Tracy and on and on and on.

7. Read Eddie Cheever's article on ESPN's web site for #7.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
6,309. Tony started the IRL.

Thanks for asking. Have a great day. Hopefully you now have your answer. Even a cursory amount of research will reveal that the ratings for EVERY SINGLE SPORT except NASCAR and the NFL are down as much or more. It's called 'reality' and it's being experienced all over TV land.

Trying to portray young Anton as the root cause is among the most stupid notions ever concocted, and shows a complete lack of the ability to reason rationally.

I'm darned glad I could help bring a little more understanding onto the forum.

[GrandView]

Originally posted by Defender

I'm sure Tony appreciates you fretting so publicly over this.

What would be the evidence of that?

6,309. Tony started the IRL.

After 6,308 items of smoke screen BS, you've finally lurched uncontrollably onto the truth.

Even a cursory amount of research will reveal that the ratings for EVERY SINGLE SPORT except NASCAR and the NFL are down as much or more. It's called 'reality' and it's being experienced all over TV land.

Quite true. And when faced with multiple choices of entertainment, the public has deemed the Indy 500 as much less important than it once was........and certainly less important than some other forms of motorsport. The Indy 500 was once one of the institutions of this nation that would have survived that.

Trying to portray young Anton as the root cause is among the most stupid notions ever concocted, and shows a complete lack of the ability to reason rationally.

Every aspect of the Indy 500 has been damaged by the split. Ratings, attendance, press coverage, sponsor invovlement, etc...... To deny that is sheer stupidity.........even for a rabid TG fan such as yourself.

Young Anton created the split...........and the damage to Indy.

Now he, and his minions, are left to offer this jewels:

1. It's not as popular as it once was, but it's better.

I'm darned glad I could help bring a little more understanding onto the forum.

Aren't we all.

GV

[timinglights]

Originally posted by GrandView

After 6,Aren't we all.

GV 308 items of smoke screen BS, you've finally lurched uncontrollably onto the truth.


Every aspect of the Indy 500 has been damaged by the split. Ratings, attendance, press coverage, sponsor invovlement, etc...... To deny that is sheer stupidity.........even for a rabid TG fan such as yourself.

Young Anton created the split...........and the damage to Indy.

Precisely.

It's not as popular as it once was, but it's better.

In what respect?

*Because of the eventual ouster of USAC?

*Or the recent departure of most of the abysmally underfunded semi-professional teams that plagued the Speedway?

*Or because of the two, count 'em, TWO American winners in the past eight years?

[timinglights]

Originally posted by Defender
Why, thanks for asking

I also asked for you to address the attendance claims you made a while back, but you seem to be unable to do so. Is that because there are no statistics that support your "claim"?

Or did you just forget to tell the truth?

[Racewriter]

Good post, Adam.

[trow]

Originally posted by AdamM

I’ve come to the conclusion that a significant % of “fans” on these type of forums were in it just for the “split.” Everything was about CART losing and the IRL winning (and vise versa) even it means morphing into something that looks an awful lot like what they originally opposed. For these folks there were no principles to uphold, no consistent vision, just CART going into the dumper and Tony George running the show (again the reverse is true for the CART hardcores.)

for some racefans it's also a thing about preserving IMS.

in the process of the split-years, I've learned a ton about the whole sport, and before the split I took IndyCar for granted because I grew up within 10 miles of the track. I supported the reason for the formation of the IRL ONLY after I heard what types of tactics the CART series was using against the track and the snide remarks they were making about the hallowed grounds of the Speedway. it was a no-brainer, the track was being threatened by a bunch of wealthy owners and I was bound and determined to learn as much about the split and the series as I possibly could. no shame here. I have no problem saying I'm NOT opposed to running a couple of rr's. heck, last winter when I went through a mini-meltdown about the way the league was flipflopping only one person acknowledged he had felt the same - RW. most everyone else was hopelessly optimistic (as I was before I seen the light). now that I have accepted the current situation, it doesn't really matter about adding a couple rr's. most folks here who were hopelessly optimistic about the series are now seeing what I saw last Dec/Jan. the series has to sink or swim. in C^RT's days after the split the economy was booming. now it's not and this has made a difference on the sport. short trackers who most here would love to see in the series will not put the effort into learning how to run Formula RE cars and/or will not pound the pavement to get the necessary backing from sponsors. WHO's fault is that I wonder?

In summary, this current situation regarding the direction of the sport is highly understandable to me because I can see without sponsor backing in the short term the league cannot continue to eat its losses on poorly attended tracks/ratings. LB would boost money from Toyota, and possibly running at the Glen would open a new market in NE. The league waited on "the little guys" to show up and they never did, now they have to either go on nd continue to do the things necessary for growth or close shop. It appears to be that simple to me.

as far as why I didn't like C^RT it is true that alot of things the IRL is doing now mirrors C^RT. this is NOTHING new it has been since 2000. most people refused to see it. it also seems impossible for the league to get around it. sad but true!

[indycool]

Grandview, "Young Anton" cannot be held fully accountable for "creating the split." With each step of motion, anyone can argue "chicken/egg" on this from one side or the other. Here're two brief facts to consider:
1. CART as an organization NEVER raced at Indianapolis. NEVER.
2. When the IRL was formed, it was open to ALL legitimate race teams who wanted to and chose to participate. ALL. It was NOT open to CART as an organization. Neither of those procedures has changed.

[Disciple]

Originally posted by timinglights
I also asked for you to address the attendance claims you made a while back, but you seem to be unable to do so. Is that because there are no statistics that support your "claim"?

Prove to me attendance is going down from one IRL race to the same one the following year on an every race basis. My claim is that attendance is statistically steady or up in the majority of cases. Most tracks do not release the data. I read about attendance in newspapers that have credibility and from personnel associated with with tracks and the league who DO keep track of those things without any skewed 'Robin-like' misrepresentation subtraction for effect.

Television ratings are steady. People like Ren have proven that every time this subject arises.

Bottom line is it could be better. In order to make it better, the IRL must:

1. Promote itself in a modern marketplace a lot more effectively.

2. Crack the whip on a broadcast partner taking coverage of the series to new lows.

3. Retain the stars made by the league.

c^rt, it's history, and the lingering bleating by the handful of malcontents who still give a darn, are totally and completely irrelevant now, except as the primary cause for the malaise open wheel is enduring. The sooner we all move on from that fiasco the better off we'll all be.

[GrandView]

Originally posted by indycool
1. CART as an organization NEVER raced at Indianapolis. NEVER.

This is the most superfluous and specious argument that exists. It's meaningless. It's the same as saying Rick Mears raced for an organization that NEVER raced at Indy. NEVER.

2. When the IRL was formed, it was open to ALL legitimate race teams who wanted to and chose to participate. ALL. It was NOT open to CART as an organization. Neither of those procedures has changed.

True. And begs the question why it was even created. What was the object of the exercise?

GV

[timinglights]

Originally posted by Defender
My claim is that attendance is statistically steady or up in the majority of cases. Most tracks do not release the data. I read about attendance in newspapers that have credibility and from personnel associated with with tracks and the league who DO keep track of those things without any skewed 'Robin-like' misrepresentation subtraction for effect.

Oh. So you cannot prove your assertion. But I remember Richmond 2001 having an attendance of 50,000. This year 40,000, tops. 20% decrease.
Two years ago you, yourself proclaimed the Phoenix attendance to be over 42,000. This year was barely 20,000. That's a 50% decrease.
And the Indy 500, which has sold all of its reserve seats for decades, failed to do so this year. OOps, that's another venue with falling sales.
Las Vegas has dropped the IRL race for 2004. If it was an ongoing money-maker, I bet they'd have found a way to keep it.
Homestead? Nazareth? What kind of "numbers" can you provide?
Texas sold over 100,000 seats for the inaugural race. It doesn't do that anymore.

The trend is for fewer sales, not an increase.

Television ratings are steady. People like Ren have proven that every time this subject arises.

Indy 500 2001 - 5.8
Indy 500 2002 - 4.8
Indy 500 2003 - 4.6

That is a steady decline. If either you or Ren can show it to be otherwise, please do.

c^rt, it's history...

Funny how it's always about CART with you. Why do you insist on making it the gold standard by which you judge the IRL?

Perhaps you like CART history so much because when their teams ran at the 500 the ratings were teriffic. #1.

Under IRL control, the Indy 500 is now somewhere around the 22nd most watched race in the US to date this year. And falling lower every week.

[indycool]

Grandview,
1. Your analogy doesn't work. Rick Mears raced -- and won -- at Indianapolis both before and after the PPG Indy Car World Series was born. He raced in CART, which sanctioned all events in the PPG Indy Car World Series EXCEPT Indy. Repeating: CART, as an organization, NEVER has run at Indy. Race teams and drivers have.
2. The IRL was created, among other reasons, to build a series of primarily oval races with the Indianapolis 500 as a centerpiece. That, and all the other reasons, have been stated many times.

[BlueStang]

Originally posted by AdamM
I’ve come to the conclusion that a significant % of “fans” on these type of forums were in it just for the “split.” Everything was about CART losing and the IRL winning (and vise versa) even it means morphing into something that looks an awful lot like what they originally opposed. For these folks there were no principles to uphold, no consistent vision, just CART going into the dumper and Tony George running the show (again the reverse is true for the CART hardcores.)

But wouldn't you, too, fall into the "fan of the split" category, by opposing everything you believe CART stood for in 1995, and embracing everything you believed the "original vision" stood for?

Sounds like it is still about who wins and who loses, just in a different way.

[GrandView]

Originally posted by Defender

Television ratings are steady. People like Ren have proven that every time this subject arises.

Television ratings were rising pre-split. People like Whoosh have proven that every time this subject arises.

Bottom line is it could be better. In order to make it better, the IRL must:

Bottom line is it could have been better. The least desirable fix was to split the core audience that existed for open wheel racing and delude yourself into thinking a small subset of that audience would sustain the appeal and growth of the sport. It didn't, and it damaged the core event of the sport.

1. Promote itself in a modern marketplace a lot more effectively

One of the problems that the IRL had in promotion was convincing the public they were a necessary alternative to the open wheel product that existed. The public wasn't buying it. They still aren't.

Regardless of original intent, or research into specific wording of the intent, the creation of the IRL had a very small segment of support.....and a large pocketbook.

Now the IRL product is slowly morphing into something other than the original product and intent. The original support is becoming devisive.

This is hardly the ideal environment for effective promotion.

2. Crack the whip on a broadcast partner taking coverage of the series to new lows.

The easiest target to blame for the league's stagnation. Blame people who aren't as idealistic as yourself.

3. Retain the stars made by the league.

You've retained the only star the IRL made. Sarah Fisher.

c^rt, it's history, and the lingering bleating by the handful of malcontents who still give a darn, are totally and completely irrelevant now, except as the primary cause for the malaise open wheel is enduring.

CART is history. However, their existence isn't the cause for the malaise in open wheel racing..............their slow death is.

The sooner we all move on from that fiasco the better off we'll all be.

You've been living in your Brave New World for 7+ years. By any measurable means, open wheel racing is worse off than pre-split.

And your battle cry is..."It's not as popular as it once was, but that's just the way I like it."

In your lifetime, the era CART serviced open wheel racing and the Indy 500 is going to be referred to as "the good old days".

Thanks Tony.

GV

[Disciple]

Originally posted by timinglights
Oh. So you cannot prove your assertion.

Frankly, it's not that I can't. It's that I'm not at all inclined to do any research for someone:

A. Not inclined to believe what I put out there.

B. Hostile to the IRL, banned from the IRL forum as a matter of fact, whose only apparent purpose is to act like a kindergarten student after someone took away his toy, much like the 'leadership' of the dead series he holds up as the right model. Right.

If you want to know so badly, do what I do. Read the papers in the local markets, call the tracks, call contacts in the league. Compare.

But I remember Richmond 2001 having an attendance of 50,000. This year 40,000, tops. 20% decrease.
Two years ago you, yourself proclaimed the Phoenix attendance to be over 42,000. This year was barely 20,000. That's a 50% decrease

You are pulling figures out of thin air, then attempting to pass them off as fact. That's called misrepresentation, something not unusual for those who support primarily c^rt. Tragic.

And the Indy 500, which has sold all of its reserve seats for decades, failed to do so this year. OOps, that's another venue with falling sales.]

Welcome to 2003, sport. The Brickyard 400 failed to sell out the reserved seats for the first time in it's history as well. I see lots of empty seats at F-1 races now, too. The c^rt races I've seen this year all had large open pockets. As I recall, the SW Vista where I was seated for Indy was packed with folks as usual. If there were empty seats, they seemed to be along infield bleachers, but filled up when the race started.

Las Vegas has dropped the IRL race for 2004. If it was an ongoing money-maker, I bet they'd have found a way to keep it.

Why continue to make lies up? That's so c^rt-like. Las Vegas did not drop the IRL race for 2004. The IRL was never on the 2004 schedule. They haven't run there for a few years. Neither party could agree on a mutually acceptable date for 2004. They both said they would try again for 2005. Las Vegas is on record as saying they want the IRL back. I don't detect any lack of harmony or enthusiasm there.

Homestead? Nazareth? What kind of "numbers" can you provide?

Steady. That's what the record says. From my personal standpoint, I think the IRL ought to tell former c^rt venues to shove it. They could easily do that now. There is no way I'd go to Milwaukee, for example, for at least for five years after c^rt finishes killing itself.

Texas sold over 100,000 seats for the inaugural race. It doesn't do that anymore.

But a regular 90K since and attendance second only to Indy makes it a raging success.

The trend is for fewer sales, not an increase.

What point are you attempting here? The trend for both ratings and attendance is steady. I like to call it stagnant. I'm not pleased with the growth and have offered solutions to fix it. In a general sense, a few venues have lower attendance and/or ratings. A few have higher attendance and/or ratings. When you do what smart people do and look at al the venues combined, the cumulative effect is a trend of steady or slowly rising.

Television ratings are steady. People like Ren have proven that every time this subject arises.
Indy 500 2001 - 5.8
Indy 500 2002 - 4.8
Indy 500 2003 - 4.6
That is a steady decline. If either you or Ren can show it to be otherwise, please do.

Once again, the concept of 'context' has completely eluded your grasp. We all know the ratings for the Indy 500 are lower than a few years ago. News flash: Ratings for all other sports except NASCAR and the NFL are down as much or more. Again, welcome to 2003.

Now for that pesky 'context' part. Are you paying attention, here TL? The television ratings being steady are applied to the entire schedule, not just Indy. Besides, if you look at Indy alone anyway, statistically, a 4.8 and a 4.6 are no different, except in the c-wagon thinking minds of people who will twist any bit of information to fit their hostile delinquency.

Funny how it's always about c^rt with you. Why do you insist on making it the gold standard by which you judge the IRL?

What, in the name of God, are you talking about?

Perhaps you like c^rt history so much because when their teams ran at the 500 the ratings were teriffic. #1.

That's got to be it. Or perhaps it's just that I've been an Indy Racing fan since 1959 and have seen (and accept) more periods of evolution than you have sleazy posts at TF, little Mr. 'Banned on the IRL Forum.'

Under IRL control, the Indy 500 is now somewhere around the 22nd most watched race in the US to date this year. And falling lower every week.

Is that right? Even if it were,

A. It beats an alternative of being run by an ethically bereft group of egomaniacs who have blown through hundreds of millions of dollars of OPM and have left shattered promises and impressions everywhere in the world that has been unfortunate enough to have any attempts at dealing with them.

B. Subtract the NASCAR races, and where will Indy be? You must either not accept or not believe factual data that shows ratings for all sports except NASCAR and the NFL down as much or more. News flash for those who can't escape the early '90's. NASCAR got really popular, primarily by promoting itself, keeping drivers it made and by having committed broadcast partners.

Again, I know it could be better. I have provided some tangible solutions. I believe real racing fans should work for the betterment of the sport instead of having a few malcontents continue to fight a counterproductive war they lost conclusively years ago after they caused a negative effect for open wheel popularity. The war over. Move on. You are not a Japanese soldier on a deserted isalnd in the South Pacific.

Can I clear anything else up for you? Fine. Do us all a favor and attempt to discuss your real or perceived 'issues' with a sense of tact and dignity befitting the environment the folks who run this place are trying to maintain. Run a spell check once in a while. Right now, you are not very credible.

[GrandView]

Originally posted by indycool

1. Your analogy doesn't work. Rick Mears raced -- and won -- at Indianapolis both before and after the PPG Indy Car World Series was born. He raced in CART, which sanctioned all events in the PPG Indy Car World Series EXCEPT Indy. Repeating: CART, as an organization, NEVER has run at Indy. Race teams and drivers have.

Mears raced for CART and won the Indy in '79, '84, '88, and '91.

Is this an untenable situation? What difference did it make that he raced in an organization that didn't sanction Indy?

Mears is one of the most respected and accomplished driver ever at the Indy 500. Is his career lessend because he raced in a series that didn't sanction the Indy 500?

2. The IRL was created, among other reasons, to build a series of primarily oval races with the Indianapolis 500 as a centerpiece.

Why? What was the research that indicated this was either necessary or had any chance of improving the sport?

GV