Is it really feasible for the IRL to run road courses?

[nj61]

Ok, I admit i hated the IRL when CART was running at Mid Ohio. I followed the forums for my job. I have watched IRL races this year and last have enjoyed them. I am not a big technical person.

My question is can you really take these oval configuration cars and set them reasonably cheap so the teams can afford them? Will they actually be able to appear at a place like Mid Ohio?

All the drivers I know are now in the IRl. This is not a political question.

I want the excitement of open wheel racing back at Mid Ohio. I just came from the bike races. They were fun but the passion of the fans wasn't there. There were more fans but no real passion.

[indycool]

Answer is yes. With all the technical mumbo-jumbo that's presented by some on the forums, CART cars have had oval-track and road-racing kits for years and years. IRL cars can, too.

[Indyknut]

I can run a bunch of bulldozers on Mid-Ohio and call it a road race. Will anyone bother to show up? Would anyone care? Probably not.

[OW fan in OK]

Sure the cars can adapt. It's such a non-issue I'm surprised it's still being repeated on every board.

IndyCars and Cart cars are just a big Lincoln Log set. Unbolt almost everything, mailman delivers parts, teams bolt different parts on.
Body parts, wings, shocks, tranny gears, steering gears, wheel base, width, springs, all get changed. They change the electronics for lower end grunt. Put in the hefty gearbox. The current IndyCar engines were designed with 2 fuel injectors and large bearings just for road racing.
It's all standard operating procedure. It's been done for years and years. Nothing difficult about it. Non-issue.

Now, the cost of having all the different parts hurt's the teams a little. But wont be as big of an impact since IndyCar has most of the better funded teams that can afford to buy the parts. Smaller teams will struggle until they get rise to the professional level and aquire sponsorship with a quality corporation.

I'd bet Brian and Toney have worked with the chasis mnftr's and have availablity and dollar limits on the RR parts. Anyone hear or read anything regarding the avalability or costs?

[downtowndeco]

Originally posted by Indyknut
I can run a bunch of bulldozers on Mid-Ohio and call it a road race. Will anyone bother to show up? Would anyone care? Probably not.

IMO this is such a load of hogwash. Whether the cars are a few ticks slower on the stop watch or not will not make a difference. People show up & watch CC & yet they are slugs compared to F1.

If the racing is exciting then the IRL will be successful. I'm willing to wait & see what they can do. No doubt they would have a hard time to be more boring than 90% of most CC road/street races.

DD

[indycool]

Oh, Indyknut, baloney. You could stick a Dallara and a Reynard with the same paint scheme in front of the office at Mid-Ohio and most of the fans -- those who go there for the racing, not those who go there trying to dispute the split -- wouldn't know the difference, and more important, wouldn't care if they wound up watching a good race and maybe, if they didn't read hate sites and hate posts on Internet forums, might even judge a bad race to some as a good race to others. And they just MIGHT have a good time.

[Indyknut]

Originally posted by downtowndeco

If the racing is exciting then the IRL will be successful.
DD

The France families GrandAm series is proof this statement is completely false, Unless of course you consider attendance in the hundreds and non-existant TV ratings as successful.

OW road racing fans and road racing fans in general have different expectations and tastes in what they expect from a road race run from a percieved, "upper level" racing series.

[rrrr]

Originally posted by Indyknut
The France families GrandAm series is proof this statement is completely false, Unless of course you consider attendance in the hundreds and non-existant TV ratings as successful.

OW road racing fans and road racing fans in general have different expectations and tastes in what they expect from a road race run from a percieved, "upper level" racing series.

Ahhhh, that "sophistication" thing again. Sorry, we are just a bunch of rubes around here.

[indycool]

What, rrrr, haven't you tittered and tottered lately about, "ooooooooooooooh, he turned right, then he turned left, then he actually had to SHIFT gears and the pudge on his car's tudgit that was secretly developed by a Hindu patriarch in India really does help the balance of the left rear wheel when it's raining on Tuesdays, and......."? C'mon, man, get with the road racing sophistication here!

[Indyknut]

Originally posted by rrrr
Ahhhh, that "sophistication" thing again. Sorry, we are just a bunch of rubes around here.

Right back at ya.

If the sportscar community was in such dire need of a series that provided that side-by-side, fender rubbing racing that the Grand-Am series is trying to sell itself with, why is the sportscar community basically ignoring the series?

There's obviously more to the equation than the close racing and that's a lesson the IRL should learn from. There's more to a successful OW oval racing series than just the close side-by-side on track action.

[indycool]

Indyknut, refer to my last post above and add to it an old oval-track saying: "The bull---- stops when the green flag drops."

[Mav-1]

I look forward to the racing. With the 3.0 litre engines, it will be more necessary to hit your marks and carry as much momentum as possible. Any slip and you're going to get passed. Should make for a more entertaining race.

Of course, I'm not sophisticated enough to be able to think like this.

[Indyknut]

I didn't realize I was presenting such an abstract idea.

"People having different tastes in racing."

Hmm.. I can see where it might be difficult to grasp that concept.

[simracer]

Originally posted by Indyknut
OW road racing fans and road racing fans in general have different expectations and tastes in what they expect from a road race run from a percieved, "upper level" racing series.

Is that why CCWS needs to run most of their races on street circuts and not real road courses?

Maybe that's why the crowds have been so thin at Portland, Laguna and Road America.

You're right, real race fans know junk when they see it.

[don7031]

Originally posted by rrrr
Ahhhh, that "sophistication" thing again. Sorry, we are just a bunch of rubes around here.

Don't fret, rrrr, maybe someday you'll be riding in the $250,000 vehicles favored by Champcar aficionados. And if you do it in Denver you may even get free tickets.

[Indyknut]

Originally posted by simracer
Is that why CCWS needs to run most of their races on street circuts and not real road courses?

Maybe that's why the crowds have been so thin at Portland, Laguna and Road America.

You're right, real race fans know junk when they see it.

You won't find me supporting what Cart/CCWS has been putting on the road courses the last few years. I find the street racing even worse. That said, that series cars are far better suited to appeal to road racing fans than anything the IRL can cobble together out of the current chassis and put on the track. The series should stick with ovals and work on the other part of the "taste" equation, That's getting appealing racers (preferrably American oval racers) into as many seats as possible and THEN selling the exciting side-by-side racing.

Going to more than 1 or 2 road/street courses is merely pushing even more potential fans away and continuing to drive OW racing in this country further into the hole.

[jjjanos]

Originally posted by Indyknut
If the sportscar community was in such dire need of a series that provided that side-by-side, fender rubbing racing that the Grand-Am series is trying to sell itself with, why is the sportscar community basically ignoring the series?

Why? For the same reason that the Soviet Communist Party did not see the need for economic reform, that the Catholic Church won't allow priests to marry and all of the fleet admirals in the world thought that the decisive naval engagement of the coming global war would be settled by 16 to 18 inch shells (and those funny little flying things would be used to spot the enemy fleet)... i.e. stupidity and a vested interest in the current state of the world.

Don't forget to too in a little anti-France Family bigotry as well.

If Don Panoz had developed the idea, sportscar fans wouldn't need viagra because of their excitement over the idea to return privateers to the mix.

[rrrr]

Originally posted by Indyknut
......that series cars are far better suited to appeal to road racing fans than anything the IRL can cobble together out of the current chassis and put on the track.

Would you care to enumerate the salient differences in chassis design and construction, compare and contrast the design philosophy differences, and meaningfully examine why the Reynard will definitely be more appealing?

Hint: Don't use the same argument that had people claiming no one would show up at Milwaukee.

[lkchris]

Originally posted by downtowndeco
If the racing is exciting then the IRL will be successful.

It seems pretty obvious watching Sam, Buddy, AJIV, and the others will prove more exciting than watching Junky, Gaston, and some Frenchman afraid of ovals.

[Indyknut]

Originally posted by rrrr
Would you care to enumerate the salient differences in chassis design and construction, compare and contrast the design philosophy differences, and meaningfully examine why the Reynard will definitely be more appealing?

Hint: Don't use the same argument that had people claiming no one would show up at Milwaukee.

I'll make it more simple. The current CCWS formula was designed back when Cart was running a variety of ovals, road, street and temp circuits. It's design, a compromise between the most optimal design, including safety features, for any of the above is what attracted a lot of fans. The IRL formula, on the other hand, was designed to run ovals. Much the same way Nascar teams put together a car to run it's 2 road races, the IRL will attempt to do the same with it's cars. You're talking big changes to brakes, brake ducting, transmissions, engine power curves, steering, cooling, etc. To think any of that would be close to optimal for road racing when the cars where designed to run ovals is unrealistic. The fact the league has less than a year to get both the Gforce and Dallara onto the track, road race ready is even more unrealistic. I think the races will draw the curious, but most road race fans I know would find you're average SCCA regional events more appealing.

Again, I'm not knocking the IRL road racing, I just believe the series needs to get the oval racing agenda on-track and moving in a positive direction before it takes off in a direction totally opposite from what the league goals were supposed to key on, That is, restoring American OW oval track racing with the majority of it's participants being American oval racers. Adding road racing at this point adds nothing to the series IMO.

[indycool]

Posted it earlier in the thread, Indyknut. It ain't that hard. In 1997, the first G Force chassis was tested at Phoenix in November, 1996. It was raced in late January, 1997.

Again, what's the difference in road-course/oval conversion kits that have been around CART chassis for years and what the IRL expects to do to convert the G Forces and Dallaras.

It ain't that big a deal.

[nascarnation]

The engine guys can spend a TON of money on development if they want to - widening the power band and adding torque. If the goal is to make IRL racing more expensive, this will certainly help do it.

[FCYTravis]

Originally posted by lkchris
It seems pretty obvious watching Sam, Buddy, AJIV, and the others will prove more exciting than watching Junky, Gaston, and some Frenchman afraid of ovals.

I won't quibble with the first two but AJIV? The only excitement he ever provides is the weekly pool, "On What Lap Does AJIV Crash"...

He's the IRL's Gaston Mazzacane. And no Gaston, that doesn't flatter you

[Mav-1]

They've had more than a year to get ready. The latest re-design was made with the intent to go road racing.

[Jim Wilke]

To think any of that would be close to optimal for road racing when the cars where designed to run ovals is unrealistic. The fact the league has less than a year to get both the Gforce and Dallara onto the track, road race ready is even more unrealistic.

Here's the part you are (deliberately) missing: When the IRL goes road racing, the cars will be racing each other, not the track. If they are a little less than 'optimal' in cornering speed, so what? They will all be in the same boat and it might even be a little more fun to see cars a bit tail-happy and squirming around instead of the high-speed parade provided by other series'.

[vegasduo]

Some people seem to think IndyCar suppliers like Toyota, Honda, GM, G-Force, Dallara, Firestone and X-trac have never seen a road course before much less provided equipment for racing on one.

Breaking news!!! All those have a huge depth of road racing experience!!! None of those are newbies to road racing!!!

Sheesh!

[mesquite]

Wasn't part of the question about money ?

If the race schedule stays at 16 ... and 2 of the ovals are replaced by road courses, the IRL has just made it that much more expensive to participate. Not only are you forcing teams to buy extra equipment, but you are asking them to buy it for a smaller amount of races.

Probably won't make that much difference to AGR, TCGR, Penske, or Rahal. The second tier is about to get separated: Fernandez, Cheever and Panther. The third tier is about to go under: Kelley, Foyt, MoNunn. You can basically forget about D&R and Access.

Voila, whaddya know 18 cars for the season with Toyota and Honda running most of them. The American manufacturer selling to a couple of teams. Hmmm, where have I seen this before???

[downtowndeco]

Originally posted by mesquite
[B]Wasn't part of the question about money ?

Sure it'll costa few extra bucks but they'll be opening up new markets & picking up new fans. New fans = new sponsors.

DD

[vegasduo]

Originally posted by mesquite
Wasn't part of the question about money ?

If the race schedule stays at 16 ... and 2 of the ovals are replaced by road courses, the IRL has just made it that much more expensive to participate. Not only are you forcing teams to buy extra equipment, but you are asking them to buy it for a smaller amount of races.

Probably won't make that much difference to AGR, TCGR, Penske, or Rahal. The second tier is about to get separated: Fernandez, Cheever and Panther. The third tier is about to go under: Kelley, Foyt, MoNunn. You can basically forget about D&R and Access.

Voila, whaddya know 18 cars for the season with Toyota and Honda running most of them. The American manufacturer selling to a couple of teams. Hmmm, where have I seen this before???

What would be so expensive? Teams already need to stock a variety of items such as springs, shocks, wings, gears and ???

Short oval wings should work for RR's though possibly with slight mods.

Some extra gears,springs and shocks shouldn't cost that much.

Different brakes? How much extra cost there?

Engines are supplied for a set lease price without increased cost to the teams.

I can't see much more if any extra costs by adding a few RR's than if they added a few more ovals.

[nj61]

Originally posted by indycool
Answer is yes. With all the technical mumbo-jumbo that's presented by some on the forums, CART cars have had oval-track and road-racing kits for years and years. IRL cars can, too.

Ok if it is feasible, what should we do to get an openwheel road race in the Midwest? Mid Ohio had there largest crowd in years for the bike races, they had Micheal Jordan, they had a full manufacturers midway. Can open wheel racing return there?