Was cruising another board and found this link...
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1524341
Anyone know what this might be about and/or feel they were ripped off themselves? I was speculating this might have something to do with them bidding on their own items, although that's just a guess.
jono
"They are actually paying me to race. What a concept."
-- Andrew Ranger talking about his NASCAR Canada team
No problems at all. Everyone was very nice and helpful.
Didn't see or hear about any problems from Key Liquidators while I was there.
Life's too short to worry/Life's too long to wait
Too short not to love everybody/Life's too long to hate
"There are a number of very knowledgeable and entertaining race fans here. There are also a number of morons. Your job is to figure out which is which." - Rev-Ed
If the guy feels he was mistreated, he should come out and say what the problem was.
Those "I know something but I can't tell you anything" posts always make me a bit suspicious.
"Duty is the most sublime word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less" - R.E.Lee
I guess he went to the Kalkhoven school of information. No truth required just say what ever sounds good when attacking the IRL.Originally Posted by jandj
So how would it be wrong for owners to buy equipment back. Everyone still gets paid and the new ownership structure has it's equipment. Guess this is another thread started in Fanatic land that made it's way here.
Get over it people you claimed Panther to be dead and it is alive.
jono - seems to me that an anonymous internet posting from someone who won't provide details doesn't even merit asking the question - does it?
and fwiw - its a public auction - and at a public auction anyone should be able to register and bid
just like you can bid for your own home at the foreclosure sale - if you can come up with the money of course
No...BOSCO was bidding, he was just getting OUTBID! He was bidding on the internet. I watched it and watched his name pop up several times. He bid on NUMEROUS things (ie:toolboxes, Air Tools, lots of hardware etc...) HONESTLY he was getting outbid. When he would bid, they also had people AT the auction who were persistent buyers and when they'd get to a certain bid, they'd start to close it out and the Auctioneer would give the price then ask the "Persistent Buyers" if they wanted to UP the ante and they did. I don't see how he can think they aren't very honest, when he actually was getting outbid. Someone bidding from the internet doesn't really stand a whole lotta chance against people who are THERE! IMO, if he feels screwed, he should've GONE to the Auction himself!!!
But that's just my opinion!
Isn't that essentially how the OWRS group obtained CART, insiders buying back assets during liquidation?
Perhaps the problem is that he was being outbid by the very person who was selling.No...BOSCO was bidding, he was just getting OUTBID! He was bidding on the internet. I watched it and watched his name pop up several times. He bid on NUMEROUS things (ie:toolboxes, Air Tools, lots of hardware etc...) HONESTLY he was getting outbid. When he would bid, they also had people AT the auction who were persistent buyers and when they'd get to a certain bid, they'd start to close it out and the Auctioneer would give the price then ask the "Persistent Buyers" if they wanted to UP the ante and they did. I don't see how he can think they aren't very honest, when he actually was getting outbid. Someone bidding from the internet doesn't really stand a whole lotta chance against people who are THERE! IMO, if he feels screwed, he should've GONE to the Auction himself!!!
E-bay refers to that as "shill bidding":
http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/s...l-bidding.html
"Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or apparent desirability, or bidding by individuals with a level of access to the seller’s item information not available to the general Community. Shill Bidding is prohibited on eBay."
The example that could be relevant here:
"Sally is selling her car on eBay. During the auction, Sally becomes worried that her car might sell for less than the amount she is hoping to receive. To ensure that no bidder can win her car for less than the price she has in mind, Sally uses another eBay account to place bids on her own car, increasing the volume of bidding and raising the price to the level she feels is ‘fair’."
Note: I'm just making some educated guesses here, since the original complainant hasn't fessed up. Has it been determined positively that they really did bid on and buy their own auction items?
jono
Didn't LOOK nor SOUND that way jono...honestly. I honestly don't see what he's got to bich about....he wasn't the HIGH bidder prior to them starting to CLOSE the bids anyway. Trust me....I watched and listened to it LIVE. I was attempting to bid on some stuff myself but didn't get my registration in time. But I sat there for 3 hours watching and listening to the bids BEFORE I found out they wouldn't accept my registration due to it's being too late for the auction.
I have no reason to lie about it jono......hell you and I get along really well, so I wouldn't feed you a line, especially if I KNEW better.
Fair enough. I guess we'll have to hear what his complaint was.
jono
I second that question....
Jono, As I stated on the other board this came from. Boles and Barnes were perfectly within their rights to bid on equipment that was coming from the dissolving of their incorporation with other partners. Usually, an auctioneer will announce to the crowd the circumstances behind an owner actually trying to bid to buy back his own stuff just to keep hard feelings and any sort of appearance of impropriety from occuring. My question is why Boles and Barnes didn't come to some sort of agreement with the others in the group to buy the stuff at an agreed upon price vs. taking their chances at an auction. Not only are you bidding against others but the auctioneer will tack his 5% or more onto the final price.
Since the equipment at that auction was so specific to an industry, a shill bidder would've been easy to spot especially if he or she were actually at the auction. OTOH, it would've been much easier to shill bid from over the internet.
Actually, they agreed to take over the "potential" liabilities that would be held against CART had the auction turned into nothing more than a pieced apart liquidation.
Thanks Indyknut, I've only ever been to one "real" auction so I didn't know what the protocol was. Makes sense that bidding on your own items would be allowed in the case of bankruptcy or dissolution.
I just knew that ebay doesn't allow sellers to bid on their own items, and if they set up a second account to do so they are banned from the site...
jono
I've watched shill bidders at work. I've got a friend who's an auctioneer. I've been to many auctions. Usually an auction house will employ an shill or two at a very large auction with many items but a few very key items. Those items are usually the ones that are advertised to get you to come to the auction. Most experienced auctioneers have a pretty good idea what an item is going to sell for before they even start the bidding.
If, for example, an item "should" sell for $1000 is up but the bidders have dropped in numbers, the bid is only at say $500 and the bid increases are creeping along at $25-50 a bid, a shill will step in and start raising the ante $50-100 a bid just to speed things along. He'll probably drop out around $850 or so and let nature and the auction take it's course. His job was to speed up the process and get the price to where it should be quicker.
They can also step in and start bidding up to get other bidders enthusiastic. Sometimes unsure bidders get caught up in the bidding and will sometimes overspend just for the high of the moment. An experienced shill can spot these types easily, they often stand close to what they want to buy.
Just a couple things if you ever partake an auction again. The whole auction experience is actually quite fun and addictive even if you don't buy anything other than something cheap.
Liabilities that would only be held against someone other than the favored group buying Cart.
Like the $65 million dollar loan from the business side of Cart to the racing side of Cart.
Sounds like a fix to me.
The judge threw the 65 million out. The liabilities would've been the potential lawsuits for breach of contract against CART Inc. for a race not being performed by OW race cars. That was the key, Tony should've spent his time before the auction working his azz off to make sure those venues had a race, then there would've been no CCWS.
You ever see that Mickey Mouse money you can buy at Disneyland? That's what I imagine Tony brought in a giant suitcase.
Tony was the smartest man at that auction. He walked away without the assests of CART. The "winners" of the auction won the priviledge of spending about $125MM, so far.
You'll continue to speculate on how much the CCWS owners are spending the same way we'll be speculating how much Tony will be spending this year and thereafter to prop up the IRL.
Makes you almost wish they were publically traded companies ...
Or not.
jono
Proof positive that brains, like beauty, is a subjective thing....
You must be joking.
Tony could have walked away with something far more valuable than a racing series: unity.
Just about every stakeholder in US OW has said the split is a problem, many identify it as the biggest problem and barrier to success. He had a chance to solve that problem for a lot less than he's going to spend dealing with it year after year from the auction on.
jono
I guess that makes me twice as smart as Tony - I didn't get the assests of CART or the IRL.
(Of course, on this scale, that makes me still about 100 times dumber than Bernie...)
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose." --- Ayrton Senna
Yes, except they won dispite getting outbid. We keep hearing how smart and saavy that was.
But, wait....., if Panther bids on it's assets, it's an IRL team....so when they do it..... that's bad.
"Is that my *** that I smell burning?" ... Helmet Stogie from "Death spasms of the Mabuchi"
It's all Judge Otte's fault.
(Not the 'shill bidding' reason which sure seems like fraud but) According to the Autoweek coverage of the recent Barrett Jackson auction some car owners bid on and bought back their own cars, paying the 8% commission rather than have them sell for less than they were willing to accept. This would seem acceptable with the cars being required to be at No Reserve, someone willing to pay the commission to keep their property so long as it's not just for raising the bid price. This would be one possible explanation for any Panther principals buying their own stuff.
"You can't arrest those guys, they're folk heroes"
"They're criminals"
"Well most folk heroes started out as criminals"
That's pretty much what Indyknut said, sounds like that's par for the course in live auctions. I'll happily withdraw my theory.
jono
I think the possible explanation that fits best is the one that references over an extended period of time a group of partners, through pack-ratting and acquisiton, owned an inordinate amount of equipment that collectively had a very difficult to determine market value and yet a prescribed ownership stake. The ownership group decided they weren't now all equally interested in maintaining their time/money investment in the continuation of the collective racing effort.
An inventory of the entire collection of stuff was done. A core amount of equipment was valued and some contingency of the original group bought the others out at a reasonably acceptible price. The balance of the equipment which had had some value but for the most part was bought and paid for over time, was put out to auction with the proceeds divided amongst the original group.
With the agreed to plan, it was also agreed that any members of the group were certainly within their rights to go to the auction and purchase anything from the lot that they wanted at the price determined by the auction process.
Of course that couldn't possibly be the case - it makes way too much sense.
And the reality is I forgot, however, Panther dissolved and auctioned everything under the sun because they couldn't pay the bills, hate the IRL and didn't plan on racing anymore until they sall some things for sale and decided at the last minute they might be able to put together a team on the cheap by buying their equipment from themselves, sort of paying twice for they stuff they already owned. Then, they also 'shilled' themselves to increase the price so they could pay more for the equipment and more to the auction company.
Yeah, that's it.
"Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer."
Romans 12:12
I am confused. Can anyone explain what the he!! the CART/OWRS transaction has to do with the thread topic - other than Biz Forum Rule #1 that states, "Every topic must become an IRL/OWRS pizzing match"
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