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Thread: Attendance Figures Not always what they seem

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    Just a race fan Vasserfan's Avatar
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    Attendance Figures Not always what they seem

    Yes, I am starting an attendance thread. A donation to Hole in the Wall is on it's way. But it is not the typical attendance thread. I am sure it will result in the usual CCWS bashing before it is through, but that is beyond my control.

    It seems that the San Jose GP way of counting attendance is the common way amoung most sports. Interesting that NASCAR and some others leave it for the media to guess on.

    Here is an article I found by snooping at that naughty web site that starts with a C. I know it is long, but it is worth the read.

    If you believe the announced attendance figures at many pro and college sports events, you might as well believe in unicorns, too The big picture Guesstimation, fabrication are common formulasBy Mark Zeigler
    UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
    May 14, 2006


    The big picture: Guesstimation, fabrication are common formulas


    A few months before the 2002 season, Jeffrey Loria sold the Montreal Expos to Major League Baseball and immediately used the proceeds to purchase the Florida Marlins. Neither franchise was particularly popular with fans, and as the '02 season chugged to a close the Expos and Marlins were neck-and-neck in the dubious race for last place in overall attendance.

    And Loria wasn't about to finish last, especially not to a team he just unloaded.

    After a string of dreadful crowds down the stretch – a 4,836, a 5,105, a 5,148, a 6,103 – the Marlins trailed the Expos by 2,348 entering the final day of the season. The Expos hosted the Cincinnati Reds at Olympic Stadium. The Marlins hosted the Philadelphia Phillies at Pro Player Stadium a few hours later.

    The Expos game ended at 3:58 p.m. in Montreal and they announced a crowd of 25,178, which seemed a tad high considering it was the third largest of the year and the game had no playoff implications. That gave them 812,045 for the season.

    First pitch in South Florida was seven minutes later, and Loria was in a bit of a quandary. There were 6,000 or 7,000, maybe 10,000 if you really squinted, scattered through Pro Player Stadium.

    The Marlins game ended, and the box score was distributed to media. Attendance: 28,599.

    Season total: 813,118.

    There it is at the bottom of the box score, below how many points and rebounds Kobe Bryant had, below how many at-bats and hits Barry Bonds had, below how many power-play opportunities the New Jersey Devils had against the Colorado Avalanche. There it is, way down there, a single capital letter and a long dash:

    A–

    Attendance.

    A box score is theoretically an accurate numerical depiction of a sports contest, with numbers, instead of words or pictures, describing what happened. And for the most part it is. A box score wouldn't say Bryant scored 30 points when he had 27 but a three-pointer rimmed out that should have fallen. It wouldn't say Bonds went 3-for-4 instead of 2-for-4 because a warning-track fly ball would have been a home run if the wind had been blowing out.

    Then you get to A–, and all sense of reality goes flying into McCovey Cove.

    It is a number that these days often has no bearing on actual attendance, which, if you consult a dictionary (or common sense), is supposed to represent the number of people attending the event.

    A glossary of attendance terminology
    Turnstile attendance: Also known as the drop count, this is the actual number of spectators at an event. It is usually calculated by turnstiles at the gate, a manual count of ticket stubs or electronic scanners that read a bar code on tickets.

    Paid attendance: The number of people physically in attendance holding paid tickets.

    Comp tickets: Complimentary or free tickets distributed, often counted in “attendance” figures released by teams. Also known as papering the house.

    Tickets distributed: The most common figure released by teams as “attendance.” This includes the turnstile count (number of people actually present) plus unused paid and comp tickets.

    Tickets sold: The number of tickets actually sold, not to be confused with the number of purchased tickets actually used or the number of comp tickets.

    No-shows: Also known as unused tickets. These are people who held tickets, either paid or complimentary, and did not attend the event.

    Sellout: It means all available tickets are distributed, paid and complimentary. “Sellout crowd” is a misnomer, unless every person holding a ticket comes through the turnstiles.


    Somewhere in the past few decades, the notion of attendance has been skewed by many teams and leagues to mean something entirely different. Most often it represents total tickets sold or total tickets distributed, no matter if people actually used them – a sort of best-case scenario projection, the intersection of capitalism and wishful thinking.

    At best, it is an innocuous if misleading effort by clubs to drive fan and sponsor interest. At worst, it is a shameless exercise in creative writing.

    Why announce 5,000 when you can get away with 8,000? Why announce 38,000 when you can say 52,000? Why not just make up an attendance figure if no one is going to call you on it?

    A capital letter and a long dash. Next to the obligatory “vote of confidence” for a beleaguered coach (translation: He's getting fired next week), there may no whiter lie in sports.

    “Now it's reached the point where you have to lie because everyone else does,” says Kenn Tomasch, a TV sports announcer and former team executive who operates the country's most comprehensive Internet attendance database at www.kenn.com. “Everything's bigger and better, and if you tell the truth you look smaller and less appealing. Everyone has to lie to keep up with the Joneses.

    “Why do they do it? It's like Yogi Berra used to say: If more people would go, more people would go.”

    Tomasch, who says he collects attendance numbers the way some people collect stamps, knows how it works. He was part of management for the Indiana Blast, a minor league soccer team.

    “I was part of it once,” he says. “We would announce what we could reasonably get away with without going too berserko. I didn't want to laugh at myself. The owner and I would get together during the game and say, 'Within reason, what can we get away with?' The one thing I've learned over the years is that the average American cannot tell you how many people are in a given arena or venue within 1,000.

    “And once that number is in the box score and you go on to the next game, it's in the history books. It becomes part of history.”

    Except at the Elias Sports Bureau, which tracks every statistic imaginable but declines to keep attendance records because, in part, their accuracy can't be verified. Elias refers people with attendance questions to the leagues themselves, and washes its hands of the matter.

    The only league that appears immune from the fudge factor is the NFL, which has achieved such popularity that it can announce the real turnstile number with a straight face. NFL teams don't paper their house with comp tickets, and the margin between tickets sold and tickets used is negligible in most cities.

    Major League Baseball announces tickets sold, which is how the Marlins justified 28,599 when there probably weren't 8,599 at Pro Player Stadium on the final day of the 2002 regular season. Midway through the game, Marlins officials later admitted, a friend of Loria's bought 15,000 tickets at the group rate of $1 each, nudging their season total past the Expos.

    But most professional and college teams, and nearly all minor league teams, have redefined attendance as tickets distributed, which generally gives them at least a 20 percent bump, and in some cases many times that. The argument is that they shouldn't be penalized in a box score and in the court of public opinion if a ticket holder doesn't show up. That passing off tickets distributed as attendance is merely the “industry standard.”

    Complimentary tickets, whether or not they're used? That counts. Huge blocks of tickets that are forced on companies as part of their sponsorship deals and wind up in some exec's desk drawer? That counts. The maximum capacity of a luxury suite even though only the suite's owner and a couple family members might show up? That counts.
    Five thousand tickets printed and then dumped in a garbage can? Theoretically, that counts, too.

    “It's hard to get under the surface of this,” says Hans Hornstein, a San Diego resident who manages an attendance database for minor league hockey, “because a lot of these teams are private companies and the public doesn't have access to the real numbers. It makes it frustrating for people like me who follow these numbers closely, seeing fewer people in the stands and seeing the numbers stay the same.”

    But sometimes the real numbers, and methods, do slip out.

    There are the Cincinnati Cyclones, a minor league hockey team that was evicted from U.S. Bank Arena because, the arena's owners claimed, they violated terms of their lease by not properly promoting the sport. The Cyclones announced an average attendance of 3,069 during the 2001-02 season. Court documents filed by the arena indicated an average of 1,473 actually came through the turnstiles.

    Or the Orlando Magic, which announced an average home crowd of 14,584 last season only for the Orlando Sentinel newspaper to access city records from the TD Waterhouse Center and report the actual turnstile count was 11,830 – an inflation rate of 23 percent.

    Or the grandstand at the Cleveland racetrack hosting a CART event, which the media guide said held 50,000 when it really seated 21,480.

    Or there's the Major League Soccer general manager who, as an inside joke, once announced a crowd of 12,345. Or the promoter who routinely puts the date in the final three numbers (if they want to announce 22,000 and it's March 23, he makes it 22,323).

    Or this classic from an SDSU assistant athletic director who, when asked for an attendance at a women's volleyball game, shrugged and said he had no idea. Then he looked at his watch and said: “918. That's your attendance.” It was 9:18 p.m.

    “I think some teams announce how much they think they can get away with, and then if they get called on it they say it's tickets distributed and hide behind that,” says Tomasch, the attendance guru. “But I think it's kind of a victimless crime. To a certain extent, I don't think fans really care.”

    David Carter, a sports marketing expert who teaches at USC's Marshall School of Business, concurs.

    “If (teams) didn't think it served a marketing purpose, they wouldn't do it,” Carter says. “It's an industry norm, and maybe there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not convinced that corporate America hasn't picked up on it and isn't aware of it. Fans might be a little irked by it, but in what capacity? I don't know where they're harmed if you say there's 40,000 in the house when there's only 25,000.

    “All it means is they get out of the parking lot sooner.”

    But why not call it tickets distributed or tickets sold, then? Why insist on calling it attendance when the formal definition is something else?

    “Go look up sports in the dictionary,” Carter says, “and tell me if it represents anything close to what it says there.”

    “Twenty-seven,” a member of the PR department for Major League Soccer's Los Angeles Galaxy says.

    “Zero, zero, zero,” members of the media finish, in unison.

    The Galaxy is announcing another sellout at The Home Depot Center in Carson, its soccer-specific stadium regarded as the sport's jewel in this country. There are entire sections of empty seats in the upper deck. Every third or fourth seat in the sideline sections is unoccupied. The suites are half full. The grassy slope at the stadium's east end is deserted.

    27,000. A sellout.

    The club's Web site references The Home Depot Center as a “27,000-seat, state-of-the-art soccer stadium,” but the actual seating capacity remains a mystery on par with the Loch Ness monster, a number so closely guarded that most employees don't know it. The state fire marshal's office, after checking its records twice, insists the “fixed seating capacity” is 20,631. A hand count by a reporter one afternoon came up with about 24,500.

    The 27,000, it turns out, comes from the contract with Cal State University-Dominguez Hills, on whose land the HDC sits. It is the maximum number of people allowed in the facility for weekend events and thus becomes the maximum crowd the Galaxy can announce.

    If it were 37,000, the jokes goes, the Galaxy would announce sellouts of 37,000.

    But when you're a young league, trying to earn the respect of a discerning public and the dollars of sponsors in a country that largely has resisted soccer's spread, attendance becomes a vital tool in achieving legitimacy. The 2006 MLS media guide notes that “25 million fans have attended regular season games” in the league's first decade and “a record 2.9 million fans” went last year. Potential sponsors, league officials confirm, receive those numbers as “official attendance.”

    Like most leagues, MLS reports tickets distributed as actual attendance. Yet few, if any, leagues have a greater disparity between what is announced and what is actually in the stadium.

    Take Giants Stadium, home of the MetroStars, now renamed Red Bull New York. Stadium turnstile counts obtained by the Union-Tribune show on average a 60 percent inflation over the past three seasons from the actual attendance and what the club announced to the media.

    Last year, the MetroStars announced an average attendance of 15,077 for 16 home games. The turnstile average: 9,240.

    In three home playoff games since 2003, the MetroStars drew an average of 5,466; the club announced an average crowd of 10,494, a 92 percent increase.

    There was a similar story at Soldier Field, where the Chicago Fire played last season before moving into a new soccer-specific stadium in the suburb of Bridgeview. In the 13 matches for which Soldier Field officials had turnstile counts, the announced crowd was 70 percent higher than the turnstile average of 7,303.

    “(Teams) aren't faking the numbers,” MLS President Mark Abbott says. “We know this from the reports we get from the tickets distributed. It's not happening ... We haven't historically tracked turnstile attendance (for all teams), so it's not a number we have. But we feel confident our 'official attendance' is a fair representation of the number of people who are coming and paying attention to the sport.”

    Either way, the turnstile numbers paint a less rosy picture about the league's health. Even if teams are indeed announcing tickets distributed and not faking numbers, it means roughly one in three tickets – and on some days, one in two – aren't being used for MLS games.

    Abbott offered several explanations. One is that Giants Stadium and Soldier Field are cavernous NFL stadiums that swallow smaller MLS crowds and may deter the fan looking for a more intimate setting, which is why both teams are moving to soccer-specific facilities in the 20,000-seat range – the Fire this season and Red Bull New York in 2008. Another issue is the tens of thousands of corporate tickets included in sponsorship packages that, Abbott says, “companies may not be able to take advantage of.”

    Also skewing MLS attendance figures are doubleheaders, Fourth of July fireworks shows and other special events. Of the league's 35 biggest announced crowds, each of them over 41,000, all but two was a doubleheader with an international match, the Fourth of July or a team's inaugural game.

    A doubleheader with the English national team at Giants Stadium drew 42,095 (announced as 50,807) – the overwhelming majority of which skipped the MLS match – and was counted in the MetroStars' 2005 season totals. Subtract it, and the average turnstile attendance was 6,871 in the league's biggest market.

    “They're popular and they're a way to promote MLS and professional soccer,” Abbott says of the doubleheaders. “We think they're no different than promotions that other professional sports teams would run, whether it's cap day or bat day. They count those in their attendance, don't they?”

    Maybe it was the Buffalo game, when the announced crowd at 30,200-seat Rynearson Stadium was 17,750. Or the Toledo game, when it was 16,061. Or the Idaho game, when it was the biggest yet: 18,920.

    The writers at Eastern Michigan University's student paper, the Eastern Echo, had seen enough. They made an open-records request for turnstile counts at football games compiled by the school's ticket management office and wrote about how they were far, far smaller than what the athletic department was announcing. Over the 2004 season, the athletic department's official attendance was 71,937 for five home games; the turnstile counts showed 28,405.

    What made things fishier was that the athletic department commissioned a separate turnstile count by members of the baseball team, and the baseball team's numbers – what do you know? – mirrored the announced numbers. When the Echo contacted baseball players for an explanation, they all declined comment.

    Even more suspicious: 2004 was the first year the NCAA had enacted a rule (since softened) requiring schools to average 15,000 fans in actual turnstile attendance to maintain Division I-A status for football. Eastern Michigan, when it included a season-ending “home” game played at Ford Field, claimed it averaged just over 16,000.

    The actual turnstile counts were closer to 6,000.

    Interim university president Craig Willis read the story in the Echo last spring and immediately ordered an investigation.

    “Announced or official attendance figures for football and men's basketball,” the report concludes, “are intentionally inflated and have been for years. The degree of inflation at EMU is dramatic – consistently more than double ... This practice is rationalized by the belief that everyone else does it, so therefore we must also do it so as not to be disadvantaged from a public relations/image perspective.”

    Because the ticket management office at Eastern Michigan reports to the dean of student affairs and not the athletic department, the athletic department paid the baseball team a $1,500 stipend and armed players with hand clickers to produce the department's own “turnstile” counts it could report to the NCAA.

    “Baseball players,” the EMU report says, “were stationed at all locations ... and given instructions to count everyone, even people who came through more than once. There is strong evidence that suggests Athletics management staff, and subsequently baseball players, were told to 'click, click, click,' to get to the targeted numbers.

    “Although there is no evidence of a written directive, it is generally understood that the Athletics Director encouraged the practice, set expectations of what the attendance figures would be and in most cases determined the announced attendance after getting information from other staff.”

    The report was dated May 1, 2005. Five days earlier, Athletic Director Dave Diles – who had been a candidate for a job opening at several other I-A programs – resigned to become athletic director at Division III Case Western Reserve in Cleveland.

    The seven-page report also hinted what might happen if EMU came clean and began announcing the real numbers: “If, in fact, the practice of inflating figures is commonplace among schools like Eastern, reporting accurate attendance figures could ... put Eastern Michigan University at a disadvantage unless other institutions are mandated to do the same.”

    Last fall, Eastern Michigan's official football attendance was 20,874. Total. That's for four home games, or an average of 5,219.

    That ranked last among 117 schools offering Division I-A football.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mark Zeigler: (619) 293-2205; mark.zeigler@uniontrib.com


    Some interesting tidbits in this.
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    Just a race fan Vasserfan's Avatar
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    Some interesting things from the article.

    A glossary of attendance terminology

    Turnstile attendance: Also known as the drop count, this is the actual number of spectators at an event. It is usually calculated by turnstiles at the gate, a manual count of ticket stubs or electronic scanners that read a bar code on tickets.

    Paid attendance: The number of people physically in attendance holding paid tickets.

    Comp tickets: Complimentary or free tickets distributed, often counted in “attendance” figures released by teams. Also known as papering the house.

    Tickets distributed: The most common figure released by teams as “attendance.” This includes the turnstile count (number of people actually present) plus unused paid and comp tickets.

    Tickets sold: The number of tickets actually sold, not to be confused with the number of purchased tickets actually used or the number of comp tickets.

    No-shows: Also known as unused tickets. These are people who held tickets, either paid or complimentary, and did not attend the event.

    Sellout: It means all available tickets are distributed, paid and complimentary. “Sellout crowd” is a misnomer, unless every person holding a ticket comes through the turnstiles.
    “Now it's reached the point where you have to lie because everyone else does,” says Kenn Tomasch, a TV sports announcer and former team executive who operates the country's most comprehensive Internet attendance database at www.kenn.com. “Everything's bigger and better, and if you tell the truth you look smaller and less appealing. Everyone has to lie to keep up with the Joneses.

    Discuss:

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    Looks to me that there are now lots of targets for all those expressing indignation over CC's fudging of attendance figures. Pretty much every sport outside of NFL football, according to the article.

    The revelations in the article don't make CC's actions any more 'right', but it does serve to put them in context.

    John

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    Just a race fan Vasserfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSR
    Looks to me that there are now lots of targets for all those expressing indignation over CC's fudging of attendance figures. Pretty much every sport outside of NFL football, according to the article.

    The revelations in the article don't make CC's actions any more 'right', but it does serve to put them in context.

    John

    Agree, I am not taking the approach that it is right because everyone else does it. But it does put it in context.


    I like the NFL's approach by posting paid attendance and the no shows.

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    I noticed that NASCAR wasn't mentioned anywhere in that article.
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    You cannot compare racing to 'stick and ball' sports.
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    On the lines of this topic, I can almost predict that Sundays race will result in the "largest crowd ever to see a KY Indycar race" . I don't mean this as a slam on the IRL but it's directed to the KY Speedway management. They have been rather generous in their crowd annoucements for all their events. The Busch race in June was said to be the largest ever and it was clearly not.

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    I truly wish all sporting events would announce ACTUAL attendance.

    It is a disservice to so many different entities to lie about the numbers.

    Here is one that I found amazing. When the Avs won the Stanley Cup a few years back, there were some claims that ONE MILLION people lined the parade route.

    And here is a story that claims 250,000 one year and 500,000 the year before. While closer, neither are realistic.

    http://espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2001/...1/1212567.html

    There are a TOTAL of 4,300,000 people living in the STATE of Colorado. So, I'm supposed to believe that nearly 25% of all residences left their homes and businesses to watch a parade?? Ok, so the 1mil was high, but 500k. Again, that is ridiculous. Just didn't happen. 12.5% of the population went downtown. Seriously, c'mon.

    C'mon. The real number was probably something like 100,000, but no one said anything. BTW, 500,000 people with 4 people in each car would be 125,000 cars. Even conceding that EVERY downtown office building was emptied, there is just no way.
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    No excuse. This is pandemic in society. People need to be given credit for dealing straight with other people, especially their customers. Sad to say, but we need to elevate people who do the right thing. In the words of Chris Rock, "That's what your supposed to do!".

    Sell the product, not perception. No wonder NASCAR did so well the last decade. They sold everything but the racing. Personalities, perception, etc.. I don't know a person who realistically does not call Indy Car's product better once they have seen it in the flesh compared to stock cars.

    I am talking about the racing, nothing else. I'm not talking about their problems with the foreign drivers, female drivers, or broken accents. I am talking straight up racing. All I know is that attendance increases year to year at Richmond. Nashville is pondering expansion because demand has increased. Texas has growth year to year and still demands a second race.

    Slow and steady wins the race.

  10. #10
    CCWS does not need to convince me that the way they count attendance acceptable because "everyone does it". CCWS needs to convince sponsors that the numbers they provide them are even remotely accurate.

    Look at the at the sidepods. Do you think CC is fooling any sponsors?

    At some point the the shell game of deception has to come to a head. It's only taking longer than usual because a billionaire owns CC.

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    "The Lake Wobegon effect is the human tendency to overestimate one's achievements and capabilities in relation to others. It is named for the fictional town of Lake Wobegon from the radio series A Prairie Home Companion, where, according to Garrison Keillor, "all the children are above average".

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    I posted this on another thread, but it's probably relevant again.

    They changed the Toronto tickets this year. It used to be one physical ticket with strips that rip off for each day. This year, you got one physical ticket per day. I got paddock passes and VIP pit walk-thru passes... you guessed it, one for each day.

    In total I received 9 tickets for each seat I bought. My dad and I had 18 tickets between us!

    Now, I wonder how that number ended up being incorporated into the attendance numbers? Hmm... if I'm the race promoter and I want to demonstrate how wonderful my event is, I'd say I sold 18 tickets, and neglect to tell the part where they went to only 2 people.

    Of course, not everyone buys paddock & pit walk-thru passes, so for most people they would be counted once for each day only... still, there is potential to fudge the truth quite significantly.

    jono

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  13. #13
    Thanks for the insight Jono. Amazing, really. Again though. I don't see any sponsors being fooled by the dubious numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by downtowndeco
    Thanks for the insight Jono. Amazing, really. Again though. I don't see any sponsors being fooled by the dubious numbers.
    No, just local promoters with no experience in racing.

    But they figure it out, a few million later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by downtowndeco
    CCWS does not need to convince me that the way they count attendance acceptable because "everyone does it". CCWS needs to convince sponsors that the numbers they provide them are even remotely accurate.

    Look at the at the sidepods. Do you think CC is fooling any sponsors?

    At some point the the shell game of deception has to come to a head. It's only taking longer than usual because a billionaire owns CC.
    Not only that, dd, but here is the other ambiiguity in all of this. There are events, maybe even in San Jose, that have 150,000 real people over the weekend. Not sporting events, just events. Maybe it's a chili cook-off or an orchid show. I have no idea.

    The key is that these events have 150,000 real, live warm bodies attending. And they create an econimic impact on the community that has been measured.

    When the San Jose Grand Prix requested it's subsidy, it used the 150,000 attendance number to base that economic impact. It doesn't really matter what the norm is in other sports, the fact is that there weren't 150,000 folks there. As a result, the SJGP overstated the potential economic impact of the race.

    My point is, when you are spending taxpayer money on the basis of your reporting methods, don't the taxpayers deserve a little more consideration than "I lied because everyone does it?"

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    I can remember going to the first CART race at California, and the place was nearly full. I think I remember them announcing 100,000 people were there that day. (Maybe an exageration, but it was a huge number of people)

    CC has never had that level of attendance since. The whole thing is ridiculous, and can't be fooling sponsors.

    If everyone other than the NFL is pumping up the numbers, then shame on all of them.

    Call it tickets distributed. Not attendance

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    Quote Originally Posted by downtowndeco
    Thanks for the insight Jono. Amazing, really. Again though. I don't see any sponsors being fooled by the dubious numbers.
    Just to be clear: I don't know what CCWS actually did for their count. But I'm guessing they chose the more optimistic count.

    Oh, and having the individual tickets was GREAT. I couldn't go on Friday, so I gave my tickets to a co-worker. Couldn't do that easily when they were all on one pass. And I went to the paddock on Saturday and did the walk-thru, didn't need it on Sunday too, so gave them to a guy with a little boy. I hope they used it, would probably have been pretty thrilling for the kid.

    jono
    Last edited by jonovision_man; 08-08-2006 at 04:28 PM.

  18. #18
    Knowingly using fake attendance numbers to obtain taxpayer funded subsidies is fraud and using the excuse that everybody else does it still does not make it right. Champ Car knew that the attendance numbers they were using in written proposals and bragging about in the media were not representative of the actual count and decided to use them anyway to obtain a better financial deal from cities and promoters.

    The Champ Car fans that used to argue in attendance threads that the gigantic numbers announced by CCWS were accurate based on photos and "I was there" type logic must feel pretty silly knowing that based on the way that fans were being counted, it is simply not possible for any of the Champ Car numbers to be anywhere close to an honest count. For years, Champ Car, friendly members of the media and fans have used these utterly ridiculous attendance numbers as a weapon to demean the IRL, the Indy 500 and TG. I find it very funny that the only Champ Car sign of success, claims of huge race weekend attendance, is now proven to be based on lies. The Champ Car emperor clearly has no clothes.

  19. #19
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    Wow... so much venom.

    I don't think the point of the article is that evil Champ Car is out to defraud the unwitting masses.

    The article just points out that the P.T. Barnum method of computing attendance is just a ruse, in ALL SPORTS but the NFL.

    That includes Champ Car, the IRL and the Indy 500, along with every other spectator sport known to man...but the NFL.

    I suppose the IRL is fraudulently guilty of accepting larger than deserved sanction fees then? Not.

  20. #20
    Registered User Jim Wilke's Avatar
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    Once again, please post any official statements or press releases from IMS regarding Indy 500 attendance. Thanks.

  21. #21
    Paradoxically Sublime Turn13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Wilke
    Once again, please post any official statements or press releases from IMS regarding Indy 500 attendance. Thanks.
    Or any evidence that IMS solicits or accepts public funds to put on their events.
    "Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
    ~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"


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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Wilke
    Once again, please post any official statements or press releases from IMS regarding Indy 500 attendance. Thanks.
    Regarding any IRL race attendance... you don't think the promoters of thier races have ever exaggerated attendance? Ever? Not once?

    Regarding the Indy 500, the Hulman george family has smartly let the legend grow to half million proportions, while conveniently for them, 'neither confirming nor denying' such claims made by others.

    Regarding T13's comment about soliciting public funds: Of course they don't ever ask directly for funding. Thankfully, they don't need to, as the track has been paid for, for decades. It's helped the Hulmans relin very wealthy. Regardless of that IMO, the city, if the track ever needed it, should offer to help out. The existence of that track has put the city on the national and world map. Period.

    Imagine if it the same track was in Philadephia? The Phillycar World Series!

    Just out of curiosity... any idea what the assessed value of the Speedway is? I wonder what thier property tax bill is, and if it's a linear relationship or a "subsidized" relationship. I.E. - I wonder if the bill is commensurate with RMV.

    I also wonder if any tracks the IRL races at, were at all subsidized by tax breaks during and after construction. Typically they are.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by step33T
    I truly wish all sporting events would announce ACTUAL attendance.

    It is a disservice to so many different entities to lie about the numbers.
    I agree...Too true. Yet it's so prevalent. The ony way to stop it now is to pass legislation that calls for required methods of recording, and stiff penalties for non-compliance.

    That would be a tough sell in congress.

  24. #24
    Non-Hyphenated American Rommey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Wilke
    Once again, please post any official statements or press releases from IMS regarding Indy 500 attendance. Thanks.
    So, OFFICIALLY, no one attended.
    If you break a vase and then glue it back together and the vase loses it's value, you do not get credit for fixing it. You get the blame for damaging it....

  25. #25
    Registered User Jim Wilke's Avatar
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    I didn't see an official release from God about sunrise but it sure got bright for some reason.

  26. #26
    Attendance means the number of people actually inside the stadium -

    paid or not paid. How many people can say they were there. That is attendance. Sad to me that sporting events can't just count and tell us what it is. If its below expectations don't announce it.

  27. #27
    dreamracer, there would be very, very few tracks the IRL races at that are somehow subsidized by the taxpayers, mainly because almost all permanent tracks in this country are NOT subsidized by taxpayers and are the result of individual entrepreneurship.

    Homestead became the first permanent facility I know of that had funding from the City of Homestead. I don't know that Kansas and Chicago, as new tracks, got any breaks, nor Kentucky.

    ISC is trying to GET some breaks in the Northwest and NYC but you'll notice there hasn't been a shovelful of dirt moved either place.

    When the NFL and NBA gave franchises to Charlotte, it was with a lot of consternation from Lowe's Motor Speedway to build them a stadium and arena.

    As far as IMS is concerned, Turn 13 is exactly correct. In fact, the Town of Speedway derives about 2/3 of its budget from IMS. And take Speedway High School for example, a sprawling place with a lot of open area near IMS. Each year, its booster club and kids park cars for the three races at IMS. Because of this, it's probably the best-funded school in the nation for extracurricular activities, raising thousands -- probably tens of thousands -- each season.

  28. #28
    Registered User Jakester's Avatar
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    dreamracer, there would be very, very few tracks the IRL races at that are somehow subsidized by the taxpayers, mainly because almost all permanent tracks in this country are NOT subsidized by taxpayers and are the result of individual entrepreneurship.

    Homestead became the first permanent facility I know of that had funding from the City of Homestead. I don't know that Kansas and Chicago, as new tracks, got any breaks, nor Kentucky.
    I'll have to differ with you on this one.

    TMS gets taxpayer support in the form of a TIF and 'sports authority'. one of many links
    Kansas did get tax breaks
    Peruse jayski.com for info on tax abatements etc. that Chicagoland Speedway received.

    This is the case with many tracks, ISC and SMI.

    regards IMS being 2/3 of Speedway's revenue. Are there any other properties within Speedway that are even comparable to IMS?
    new sig pending

  29. #29
    Okay, Jakester, you found them and I stand corrected. On those three, plus Homestead. But in the case of the older tracks, they're just screwed with this wave of new building. It's not like a football or baseball team, for which they can just threaten a city for new cribs or move someplace else. TG can't just pick up the Speedway and move it to Des Moines.

    And no, there aren't any properties anywhere near comparable to the Speedway as a tax base for the Town of Speedway....

  30. #30
    Registered User Jim Wilke's Avatar
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    Allison plant?

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